Big threshers?

[lowprofile]

so our "local" fishery usually produces alot of 40-90lb models with some up to 150lbs. i seen some pics of a touney out of DP and they haul in 300lb models like its cool.

from what i've gathered and seen, in the fall, if you head south out of NPH to a canyon you can hook into some 150lb+ models if your there at the right time. But.. this is the only place i know.

so questions... what other places get bigger threshers and can you catch them all year? i was thinking La Jolla would be a good bet, especially since its so deep and all the activity, also carlsbad canyon, also alot of activity in the summer and its also super deep with shallow shelves on each side.

any suggestions? I figure since i dont have much time left in cali, I'm going to give it my all to get the biggest fish of each species i can. fishing just to fish is fun, but i want a 4 hour fight :reel: :D

[Iceman]

I think bigger threshers are know to stay outside of 150 fathoms, find places where water is pushing 1000 feet deep closest to shore.

[mtnbykr2]

Malibu ...mlpa...seen them in the sewer when it is warm

[lowprofile]

I think bigger threshers are know to stay outside of 150 fathoms, find places where water is pushing 1000 feet deep closest to shore.


that deep? are they the big eye or palagic threshers?

btw, wheres a good site for maps? if any.

[Iceman]

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/species/fish-species/socal-thresher-madness

My bad I think most work the 100 fathom contour.

Elm focuses on two different depth zones and, in effect, two different fish populations. “Depending on where the bite has been happening, I fish along the 50-fathom curve or the 100-fathom curve farther offshore,” says Elm. Although it’s not written in stone, he usually finds sub-100-pound fish tighter to the beach. The bigger fish usually work deeper feeding zones, where you are more likely to encounter a typical 100- to 150-pound thresher — with a shot at the occasional 250-pound monster.

[Fiskadoro]

I'm going to give it my all to get the biggest fish of each species i can. fishing just to fish is fun, but i want a 4 hour fight :reel: :D

If you really want to fish for adult Ts you should read Fred Archers books on them. I've posted some things over the years but he's got a good general book on how to do it, that explains the special gear etc.. you need to target Bigger T sharks.

Basically there are two behavior groups juveniles and adults and they behave in different ways. Adult T's are much tougher then pups under 150 pounds they fight harder and longer then anything you can imagine. It's something you can't really get until you tie into a really big one. People say swords are tougher but I'm not sure they are right one that one. Archer claims the only thing that compares is Giant blue fin but I've never caught one so I wouldn't know.

A big T will really bust your ass and often fight itself to death. My largest was just over fourteen and a half feet long. That fish sounded 400 yards straight down when I hooked it and stayed down there 1200 feet down for almost a hour traveling five miles in a straight line, before it decided to come up and start jumping. Imagine being hooked to a airplane 1200 feet in the sky moving slowly north while you follow it on the ground. That's kind of what it was like. I couldn't even budge it, I couldn't of pulled it up, I just followed along putting as much pressure as I could waiting. Finally it just came up on it's own, so fast it created a huge bow in my line, so much so that my line was still pointing down when it start jumping thirty feet out of the water a hundred yards ahead of me. They make Marlin look like pussies. Eventually we ended up getting close enough to gaff it, but I only got it because we were able to follow it in the relative comfort and safety in a boat and wait it out.

I only keep adult Ts when they die on the line. I could probably kill a dozen or so a year if I wanted to. I quit posting about them because too many people started fishing for them, as a direct result of what me and a few others posted on BD and elsewhere. It was my first big lesson about fishing in the internet. Used to be I'd be the only one out there or maybe one of my buddies would be targeting them as well. Then due to the internet it went to hundreds of boats killing hundreds of sharks a day, after a while it made me kind of sick.

Now it seems to have calmed down a bit. Most people think there are so many more small ones then large ones, but that's because they do not understand their migration or how to target them, which honestly suits me just fine.

I will say that juvenile Ts stay tight to the coast for a longer period of the year then large ones. Big ones migrate through each spring, and they do come in close enough to target with a kayak, but I'd say you are highly unlikely to land one over 200 pounds.

When I first got into kayaking I got an idea that Id' like to take a big one over 200 pounds from the Yak. First day I tried I hooked a good one off Dana point. My take at the time was that with the same gear that I'd use in my skiff I could land one the same size. So I was fishing with an international, rollers, 80 pound. I had that shark on for longer then it took to land my 14+ T, never got it closer then a hundred feet down, when I was maybe five miles offshore I started thinking there even if I got it there was no way I could paddle it back to shore. I was dead tired, just couldn't get enough lift on it, and there was no way i could of towed it back anyway. At that point started thinking about trying to get it off. I gave it slack, pumped the rod trying to get it to spit the hook, but there was no way I was going to unhook it, and with 80 pound I could not break it off. I felt like a total idiot.

Finally after a few more miles I gave up and just cut it off. I figured better leave it towing a bunch of line then having it die on the line and then not be able to do anything with it.

If you want to target bigger ones I'd suggest finding someone with a skiff to fish them. If you want a long fight on kayak trying beating a 100 to 150 class T on ten pound. My buddy Steve does that all the time and it's a real blast.

I mean how big do you really need? Most people way overestimate their weight anyway.

This female is around 178:
http://www.bdoutdoors.com/gallery/files/4/3/0/Tshark.JPG

This Male is around the same size.
http://www.bdoutdoors.com/gallery/files/4/3/0/tshark4.JPG

http://www.bdoutdoors.com/gallery/files/4/3/0/tshark6.JPG

Shark looks a lot bigger then me, but I'm 6'1" and 185 pounds.

Both those fish were taped and weighed on certified scales, and their about as big a T I'd say I could be land off a unassisted kayak, and that's pushing it. The first was five miles out of Newport, the second only a mile or so off Dana Point. Both of those I caught within thirty minutes of putting a bait in the water, if you know how to target them they are not hard to catch. Unfortunately both were tailhooked and died on the line which lead to two very short seasons for me.

In contrast a real T like this one is in my opinion right out of the question for a kayak.
http://www.bdoutdoors.com/gallery/files/4/3/0/BGthresh3.jpg

I couldn't even find a scale big enough to weigh that one up here in LA, and there is no way I could of brought it in to the dock alone on a kayak.

Just my take though. Good luck. I just think if you target adult T sharks from a kayak you may end up with a lot more then you bargained for.

Jim

[Fiskadoro]

http://www.saltwatersportsman.com/species/fish-species/socal-thresher-madness My bad I think most work the 100 fathom contour.

Ha Ha Ha.... Guys using my light line leader style, Archer would be pissed.

Depth is not that important, upwellings and bait concentrations associated with depth structure are more important.

I don't know the author personally but check this quote out.

"....California Thresher Sharks

Rods: 5 1/2-foot stand-up tuna trolling rod for teaser outfit; 7-foot live-bait-action rod rated for 30- to 50-pound-test for skipbait.

Reels: Accurate ATD 30 for teaser outfit; Shimano TLD 15/20 or equivalent for bait outfit....."

You got to laugh. That's common So. Cal. Marlin gear not Adult Thresher gear. Obviously this guy has little experience T shark fishing or has only fished pups.

Big Threshers will completely demolish TLDs. I love TLDs for most gamefish but, I've got a broken TLD25 right here that was destroyed by an adult TShark. For anything over 200lbs you want an aluminum framed 2 speed that holds at least 400yards of eighty, and that is minimum. Anything less is going to get you in trouble unless your only targeting pups tight to shore. It's a no brainier. Even using cut mackerel (as the author does) your still going to tailhook some fish, say you hook a 200 to 400 pound thresher in the tail and it dies on the line several hundred yards straight down. How are you going to winch it up with a TLD15?

Small hooks "4/0", light leaders, 30 to 50 pound test, small T's in his pics and Marlin gear. It's obvious that most his experience is fishing smaller T sharks.

Jim

[William Novotny]

Jim thank you for the awesome read and insight. My rule on the t's is one for the freezer per season, the rest cpr'd. So far all of mine have been of the smaller variety 70ish with a few a bit larger. Looking to up my sizes a bit this year too.

[Pat]

You got to laugh. That's common So. Cal. Marlin gear not Adult Thresher gear. Obviously this guy has little experience T shark fishing or has only fished pups.


Jim,

Dave E has seen and done more in Socal fishing than you will have ever done in 100 lifetimes, so don't make stupid comments like that when you don't know what you are talking about. :cheers1:

[vincentek9]

caught my 70# thresher with this setup.. 40# spectra. 7'8" 15-30# inshore rod. took an hour and a half outside of NPH.

http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/af199/imsoazn2dai/for%20sale/IMG_0232.jpg

i heard the best chances for threshers up in the OC are NPH, near the long beach breakwall, and in front of Seal Beach Peir. i ear the canyons of NPH hold larger ones. outside of NPH, the breakwall and seal beach hold smaller teenage T's

[Fiskadoro]

Jim, Dave E has seen and done more in Socal fishing than you will have ever done in 100 lifetimes, so don't make stupid comments like that when you don't know what you are talking about. :cheers1:

LMAO!!!

Actually I do know what I'm talking about, that's how I know that 30 to 50 pound test on a TLD15 is the wrong gear for baiting adult threshers.

Pretty much all the true T shark experts I know would say that anyone who disagrees with me on that point doesn't know what they are talking about.

Yes you can bait Striped Marlin on that gear, but it is definitely not the proper gear for fishing adult Threshers over 200 pounds. A TLD15 is a great real for smaller fish and even acceptable for local striped marlin with 30lb test, but it's no match for Giant Bluefin, Swordfish, Adult threshers, or even Cow Yellowfin Tuna. Adult Ts outfight Cows, try taking a TLD15 on a long range trip to fish for Cows.

So maybe you think I'm somehow insulting Dave by saying Ron Ballanti the guy who wrote the article doesn't know the kind of gear that is needed to land big threshers. I'd say that's a stretch. I know of Dave. Tackle guy, works for Aftco. I'm not sure about his shark experience but just for you I'll make some calls, because I know people who know him well. I seriously doubt he's fished sharks as much as I have but then again I'm a shark nut and I've been fishing them for forty years.

Gear wise with his experience you'd think he'd know better then to recommended graphite bodied TLDs for Adult T Sharks, so I kind of think he never said it.

I have no idea who Ron is. From what I can tell from his past articles it seems his biggest thing is writing articles essentially press releases about United Anglers. Seems he interviewed Dave. Which is not that surprising considering that Dave is connected to United Anglers. From the read I'd say that Ron probably doesn't know jack about big threshers. The article is full of half truths and misinterpretations, so I gather he came up with on his own gear ideas or just misinterpreted Dave when it came to gear. Just the mark of poor writing. You tell people one thing and they interpret it into something else.

Let me give you an example:

"The bigger fish usually work deeper feeding zones, where you are more likely to encounter a typical 100- to 150-pound thresher — with a shot at the occasional 250-pound monster...."

Now Dave probably said there are bigger sharks offshore in deeper water, due to their migration pattern, which is true, but I highly doubt he referred to a 250 pound thresher is a "monster". A 250lbs T is not a monster it's a young adult, barely mature enough to breed, and at times you can find whole groups of hundreds of them moving up the coast in packs or in groups working bait balls offshore.

Anyone with any real experience fishing them knows that, so I can't really see Dave saying it.

Jim

[Fiskadoro]

...you don't know what you are talking about. :cheers1:

Man I just had a good laugh about this post on the phone, and my friend a true big game and thresher expert made a suggestion I just have to pass on to you.

Why don't you go over to SCMO
Southern California Marlin Online "ask the experts board"http://www.marlinnut.com/forums/f12/

...and simply post a question if a TLD15/20 with 50 pound test is appropriate for baiting large adult thresher sharks off Southern California.

Then go over to Bloody Decks
http://www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/

...and once again simply post a question if a TLD15/20 with 50 pound test is appropriate for baiting large adult thresher sharks off Southern California.

Just put up the posts then link us to them here so we can read the responses. I'd do it myself but everyone would know I was full of shit.

Look at it this way. If those tackle recommendations are correct everyone is going to tell you it's great gear and to go fish them, and then you can come back and tell me once again that I don't know what I'm talking about.

This is not about politics. No fair mentioning the article, Me or Drew. It's not popularity contest, it's not about whether people support Dave or United anglers, make it strictly about tackle.

I'd say you better have a thick skin because a lot of people are going to give you a hard time for even suggesting you could take adult threshers one that gear.

Jim

[RedSledTeam]

Sounds like someone wants to 'shoot an elephant with a squirrel gun!' :eek: :D:elefant:

[Fiskadoro]

Jim thank you for the awesome read and insight. My rule on the t's is one for the freezer per season, the rest cpr'd. So far all of mine have been of the smaller variety 70ish with a few a bit larger. Looking to up my sizes a bit this year too.

Thanks man. You know it's weird how you always are drawn to respond to the negative crap before the cool posts, but thanks for your reply. The Big Ones are coming soon, they move up the coast faster then you think. You hit the migration right you can't miss them. The key is getting a bait in front of them when they come by.

There is nothing quite like watching a quality T screaming drag of an Tiagra or International, it always sends chills up my spine.

I may skiff fish them this year, as I have some friends who have never caught a big one. I might be willing to try for them from a kayak again just to see if I could do it but I'd want a support boat or take my skiff as a backup.

Jim

[PapaDave]

I am looking to try and catch a 70-100 pound T-Shark this year. I got a baby last year and hooked/lost several others to outfits too small to handle them. I wasn't fishing for them at the time and was not even close to prepared. Hooked one on my ultra light (Sedona 500, 15lb braid) after letting an anchovie drag the surface while fixing my other setup. 30 seconds of absolute amazing gymnastics.

Don't want to keep all that I catch either, one would be fine.

[William Novotny]

Thanks man. You know it's weird how you always are drawn to respond to the negative crap before the cool posts, but thanks for your reply. The Big Ones are coming soon, they move up the coast faster then you think. You hit the migration right you can't miss them. The key is getting a bait in front of them when they come by.

There is nothing quite like watching a quality T screaming drag of an Tiagra or International, it always sends chills up my spine.

I may skiff fish them this year, as I have some friends who have never caught a big one. I might be willing to try for them from a kayak again just to see if I could do it but I'd want a support boat or take my skiff as a backup.

Jim
Dude, you don't even have to explain about responding to negativity......i know to well. When I say "bigger" im hoping to keep it in the 150-175 range. Im using a.....wait for it.....tld15-20 strummed up with 50# braid. Im down to push my gear to its limits but I honestly don't have enough freezer room and neighbors that I care to share with to keep a bigger t.

[Pat]

Actually I do know what I'm talking about,

Based on what?

So what, you went out in a WFO t-shark bite in Apr/May '07 off Laguna Canyon and caught a few just like every one else.

Anybody thats anybody in fishing knows your a legend in your own mind. :notworthy:

[dorado50]

I'm a nobody and prefer it that way but I do know a few "legends in their own minds" and it ain't fun!

[Fiskadoro]

Based on what? So what, you went out in a WFO t-shark bite in Apr/May '07 off Laguna Canyon and caught a few just like every one else.

So I decided to come back and tone this down. I'm not mad I actually find the whole thing pretty comical.

First off.... I honestly don't think I fished T sharks at all in 2007. If I remember it right I still had thresher meat in the freezer when they came through. That might of been the year I took Rick's 56 Ocean Sportfisher down from MDR, and put him on a Thresher, but if so we got that fish south off an upwelling down by Dana, with no other boats around. I did fish them in 97, but that's a whole other story and like quality seabass they were a lot harder to catch back then.

I don't fish bites or crowds when it comes to T sharks. I can't think of a single quality T that I've caught when I was within a mile of another boat. You hunt down big Ts like marlin, and you don't fish the crowds like with seabass. Small inshore Ts group up and make bites. Big Ts are always on the move, here to today ten miles up the coast tomorrow. Even when you find them in groups they are usually spaced out maybe fifty to a hundred feet apart, big single fish down on the thermocline always on the move.

The only reason people think they stay in one place is they run into multiple waves of the same migration as the fish move up the coast.

You're obviously not a Big Game fisherman, you think a TLD15 is adequate for them, and for some weird reason you want to tell me I don't know my shit. Fair enough, but I can honestly tell you that anyone with big game fishing experience is going to know you're wrong.

I mean honestly how many Ts have you caught over 200 pounds? How many hours have you followed and trolled for them offshore? How many years have you tracked their migrations up the coast? Where do you get off telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when from what you are saying it's obvious you have no experience with them.

I can post about these larger sharks because I'm actually experienced with them, fished them for decades, and know their behavior.

I mean really..LMAO... a single speed TLD15 or TLD20 is not a big game reel. Everyone and anyone who fishes Big game knows this. Shimano knows this. They would never even recommend these reels for this application. It's just kinda ridiculous. :D

Speaking of real stuff versus web smack... This is what happens when you fish graphite framed TLD's for Adult T sharks:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/3281/reel48.jpg

I just took this pic a few minutes ago, and that reel in the middle upside down is my TLD25 with a cracked frame that was broken when a friend of mine hook an adult T with it then tried to stop a adult fish with it. It stripped three quarters of the line off the reel and he over tightened the drag and the frame popped. Happens all the time I can give you multiple examples off various boards.

Here's a a closer view:
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/9446/detail48.jpg


See how the frame is cracked on the left. Now we in the larger fishing community call that first hand observable experience. :D

The stress from the harness, at the reel seat it was just to much for the composite and it snapped the foot. I know this happens because not only have a seen it happen to others but it happened to my own stupid reel, and I'm the one who's to drive over to shimano and get a new free frame. That damage is exactly why no-one with any real TLD reel experience fishes Adult Ts with graphite framed Shimanos. I love the reels, I own over a dozen of them but they are not built strong enough to fish for Adult Ts.

Now the reel next to it on the left is a different story. That is a TLD30 a 2speed version of the TLD 25 that has been upgraded with a superior drag, aluminum handle, and a aluminum frame.

One sweet reel and theoretically capable for T's up to around maybe 250 pounds. I still do not consider it an adult T reel, and don't use it for them. I like it for bait and hundred pound YFT, and it's alright for smaller Ts, but if I'm going with a reel that size for bigger fish I prefer a Daiwa SLD30-II (there's one in the back somewhere, I own four) because it has smoother gearing at low speed when the drag setting is over 18 pounds, and is better for cranking up from straight down.

That said I prefer Tiagra or International two speeds for most adult T fishing and if there are big fish over 300 pounds around I only fish 50 two speeds with 150 pound spectra for reasons that you'd find boring or pretentious.

So I'm now a legend in my own mind....hmmmm...... Well you know what they say: "In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king."

Hey how are those threads going at Marlin Nut and BD???? SCMO may be our local big game site but it has big game fishing talent posting from all over the world, and they will give you the straight dope. They will tell you straight up, that a TLD15 or TLD20 is not a big game reel (they were originally deigned for 15 and 20 pound) and that adult Ts are big game, trust me I know.

Jim

[lowprofile]

well this was fun.

i have a few set ups and a couple days on the books. i think ill see what i can pull off.

[Fiskadoro]

I'm a nobody....!

LOL...believe it or not I know the feeling.

There are different kinds of legends. It's the online form, those that constantly hang out on boards sniping at others that are most irritating.

The True fishing legends I know don't hardly post anymore. I mean I love to fish and have put in a lot of time on the water but there are people who know a lot more then I. The Brackmans, Leevy, Mrass, Larry, Chugey, they all know more about T sharks then I do. I could name a whole other set for tuna.

They don't even post online for the most part because they don't want to deal with all the we nuts stalking them and trying to put them down.

Nothing as savage as some jealous idiot with a computer.

In hindsight I should of just let this thread go by and never said a damn thing.

Jim

[RK]

PAT IS THE MAN!

case closed.


(lock it up Adi)

[Fiskadoro]

PAT IS THE MAN!

case closed.


(lock it up Adi)

Indeed... I'm just glad he didn't say the world was flat, or the universe revolves around us.

Yep the TLD15 is the ultimate Big Game tool, can kill anything in the ocean and all those guys with Gold Reels and God forbid two speeds are just throwing good money away for nothing. :notworthy:

[Fiskadoro]

Sounds like someone wants to 'shoot an elephant with a squirrel gun!' :eek: :D:elefant:

That old Archerism is so true :luxhello:

[William Novotny]

LOL...believe it or not I know the feeling.

There are different kinds of legends. It's the online form, those that constantly hang out on boards sniping at others that are most irritating.

The True fishing legends I know don't hardly post anymore. I mean I love to fish and have put in a lot of time on the water but there are people who know a lot more then I. The Brackmans, Leevy, Mrass, Larry, Chugey, they all know more about T sharks then I do. I could name a whole other set for tuna.

They don't even post online for the most part because they don't want to deal with all the we nuts stalking them and trying to put them down.

Nothing as savage as some jealous idiot with a computer.

In hindsight I should of just let this thread go by and never said a damn thing.

JimI was able to read between the lines and pull alot of useful info from this thread.i can see getting tired of defending your comments after putting in years of time hunting these threshers, but guys with alot less experience are reading and appreciate the insite.

[Kahouna]

I too read through the lines and gleaned some really good information. I'm pretty sure a lot of people got the same.

[Jim Sammons LJKF]

Just remember guys this is a kayak fishing forum not a skiff fishing forum and fighting a fish from a kayak is way different than the much higher weight of a skiff. You can land pretty much as big a fish as you want in a kayak with a TLD15 LD. Are there better and stronger reels that may give you a shorter fight, hell yes, will the TLD 15 do the job, I would say for anything you actually want to catch in your kayak, hell yes.
I say this no to brag in any fashion only to qualify my statement. I have caught dozens of Threshers from my kayak with my biggest T off my kayak weighed on a certified scale, so no made up weight, and it was 172.4 pounds. Landed on a TLD 15 LD with 20 pound test and a 100lb flouro leader. The fight lasted 2 1/2 hours and was caught over the LJ canyon. This fish, because I was in a kayak, never got more than half way into the spool of line. Same with my first Marlin from the kayak, which took much faster runs, which was estimated at 150-180. That one was on a Charter Special which I guess is closer in size to a TLD 10, this time 20lb test with no leader. Again this fish never got even close to halfway into the spool, it did though drag me 8 miles out. I was with my friend Howard when he hooked and fought a 300lb plus Blue Marlin on a Trindad 14 and the fight lasted 4 1/2 hours and covered close to 17 miles and again the fish never got more than 1/2 way into the spool. I only say these things again as a reminder that we are fighting fish from a moving platform so generally speaking you just don't need that big heavier gear that Jim is talking about. Not saying you wouldn't mind having it during those long fights and have the ability to drop into low gear and just grind.

On aside, threads like this are why this community has gone down hill and many of the guys that have been around for a long time no longer post. There is rarely the sharing of info, if you do share you get attacked, if you don't share you get attacked, or in the sharing you are attacking someone else, or the posts are just a.... look at me...... a I am better than the rest of you..... look at me... just condescending with no actual helpful information. It honestly really depresses me to think of how close this community used to be and to where it has now come.
The people that give others crap for sharing information are generally the same ones who were all over this site sucking up information when they got started. I just don't get it :hmmmm:

[mtnbykr2]

:iagree::grouphug:, "Now back to your regular scheduled program already in progress"

[GregAndrew]

I could not agree more with you Jim Sammons.

[Fiskadoro]

Just remember guys this is a kayak fishing forum not a skiff fishing forum and fighting a fish from a kayak is way different than the much higher weight of a skiff. You can land pretty much as big a fish as you want in a kayak with a TLD15 LD. ......


Great stuff Jim. I agree with you. Most people only know one thing or one way to fish. The deal is Offshore inshore, boats kayaks etc.. all have their unique tackle demands, one size really doesn't fit all :D
.
I'd add something you may not have considered to that. Personally I'd say that the largest tackle issue you face with really large threshers is when they die on the line.

I had a good friend that got a 400+ fish a while back that was tail hooked and died. Initially as it sank he thought it was still alive and just taking drag, but eventually he realized it was dead and that they'd have to lift it's 400+ pounds back to the surface with his eighty pound gear. With him working the rod and another guy at the rail lifting hand over hand it took them several grueling hours to get it up to the boat. Then they had to tie it off, take it in and clean the thing.

He told me if he had to do it over again he would of stayed home.

I don't think there would be any way to get a fish like that back to the surface without heavy gear that could actually winch them up, and I don't see how you could utilize such gear effectively from a kayak. Perhaps towing a kayak she might of never sounded and died, who knows.

If a fish is hooked in the mouth, and stays up top I think you'd have a good chance even thirty pound, but if a huge one sounds and dies on lighter gear it's a waste of flesh because you just can't lift them back up.

My take is if I kill it I have to utilize it. so I now use the heavy gear from my skiff now precisely because it can lift a dead one back to the surface. I fish alone, I don't have a deckhand to hand line a dead fish for me. To me it's just part of the game. I need to have a reel that gears down low enough, with strong enough line to dead lift a huge fish. It's just a given.

I did not always see it that way. I fished Makos first and with them you can fish much lighter gear. I did not say it earlier but my largest T was caught on a TLD25 filled with straight forty mono, my standard Mako gear back in the day. I was actually fishing for Makos when I hooked it, and I managed to get it, but that fish was mouth hooked, and came back up to the top, so it was really only luck and great boat handling from my buddy, that allowed me to get her.

Now I know enough to leave that gear at home when the bigger T's are around. After fishing them enough and seeing the various things that can go wrong, and the number of them that fight themselves to death, I now feel fishing with that light of gear is irresponsible. I kill I keep it's the bottom line.

That's actually kinda the problem I have with the article linked to in the thread. Ron's not talking about fishing them in kayaks, he's talking about fishing them in boats, and unfortunately he's generalizing that gear used to fish small inshore Ts will actually work for offshore fish. Inshore you can utilize lighter tackle because they can't sound deep. It's just not the case for bigger fish offshore.

At any rate thanks for your well reasoned response and perspective. Great stuff as always. Hey and if you ever want to go for some real monster Ts maybe we can rig up a support boat and chase some down for you.

Jim

[Jim Sammons LJKF]

Well you will notice in my post I said.
"You can land pretty much as big a fish as you want in a kayak with a TLD15 LD"

I don't know that I "Want" a 400 lb Thresher from my kayak. :eek:

Ah who am I kidding, of course I do. Not bringing it on board though!!


Oh and forgot to mention.
PAT is the Man
A nicer more chill guy you will never meet! And I am not saying this because he is bigger than a house.

[PapaDave]

Personally, between all the bickering, I've managed to pick up a lot of useful information. I think it is a shame that to get the info you have to sift through everyone's ego. I just don't understand that aspect of it.

Thank you JimD and JimS for the info you guys posted, I am going to put it to use soon. Not on any 400lber's though.

[sixgunn]

Well, as for my self, being fairly new to the whole concept of fishing from Tupperware, I do get a lot of information from this forum. I have learned basic concepts on how to best rig a yak for fishing big fish, & really big fish, how to get said fish to the yak, & what to do with it when you get it there... even how to make bait from a yak.
Their are readers here that don't, & may never fish SoCal, so specifics on how to catch YT, WSB, or big T's may not help us so much, but its still nice to learn different ways of doing things, (first hand accounts are always best).
This is the most active Kayak fishing forum I have found, & have seen people from all over the US on here, & even post from Australia & GB.
I grew up here in the Puget sound, and growing up, my experience was bottom fishing, even at that, the way some of you rig for Halibut is different than what I learned, & will have to try it next time I go to an area where I am allowed to target them, with a few hook changes to comply with local regs.
I saw an Orca once, less than 5 ft from to boat as my dad was sending some herring down for a Ling, & his line commenced to screaming, he just cut the line... I knew a guy who swore he snagged a sub, witch is totally possible, in that area, & I have seen rods break on a fast drift and a hard snag, sending part, if not the whole, broken, rod & reel to the bottom.
I don't have a lot of money these days & cant afford the best, or to loose what I have. I hate having gear broken & hate cutting line, so If I have to loose something, including a fish (or Marine mammal) I cant manage, I prefer to be able to break it off within 10ft of the hook.
All that said, You guys are the reason I have gotten into kayak fishing. you guys seem to have such a good time & seem to be a pretty close knit group of guys. that and Its a whole lot cheaper than all the cost associated with a boat, & a whole lot more fun than throwin, lures, or bait from the shore.

[Drake]

How will this reel hold up against a medium to larger sized thresher?
I have 350yrds of 65# Jerry brown and and 150yrds of 40# spectra backing.


Single piece alloy, 27lbs of drag, 4.3:1 carbon matrix drag system....

http://www.purefishing.com.au/assets/img/product/alphamar/main.jpg

[dorado50]

Remove the levelwind and it will be good to go..


Its not the quality of the gear that catches fish but the quality of the fisherman!

[Drake]

Remove the levelwind and it will be good to go..


Its not the quality of the gear that catches fish but the quality of the fisherman!

Just curious why people are so against the level wind? I haven't had an issue with it =/

[lgdpt]

I have battled a few threshers over the years. I even speared an 95 lb one once. I dont know Jim at all but my experiences with Threshers are in line with his. It would be foolish to attempt to land one of those monsters off a kayak. I have tried...

[Fiskadoro]

I was playing around online and came across Fred Archer's "Shark Troller's Bible" Online at Google.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Cb3aUKJb4o4C&pg=PA33&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=true

Doesn't look like the whole book is there but there is something like a third of it, something like forty pages. Though you can't copy it, it can be read online.

For those who don't know Fred used to be considered one of the best known authors if not authorities on Big Game Shark fishing in So.Cal. He's written numerous books about it, and flat out his books changed the way people fished for Sharks off So. Cal.

Might be an interesting read for some.

Jim

[bus kid]

where did the BOTD section go? oh wait sorry wrong website.... :rolleyes:
thanks to Jim and Jim for the insight.

[lowprofile]

btw, good luck finding these guys on the yak. i went out several times in "prime" locations at the "right time" and got nothing... might have needed to fish my baits more towards the bottom than the mid and upper water column though. but 280ft seems kinda deep for a mackerel. lol

[monkeyfishturds]

With La Nina in the rear view mirror, I hope there is a better showing of threshers along the coast this spring. If bigger models show up like in 06', I'll put away my zebco plastic spool and beef up my gear.

[Fiskadoro]

I'll put away my zebco plastic spool and......

Thanks for all that intelligent info :D

Actually you have my sincere thanks Mike for resurrecting this thread.

What a difference a year makes.

In the last year I've learned a lot more about Pat as a person and his fishing abilities. I have no doubt he could teach me a thing or two when it comes to fishing Iron, and certainly about La Jolla in general. You know how it is sometimes you just get off on the wrong foot, and with all the trolls, stalkers and other nut cases on the web it's sometimes hard to tell exactly who you are dealing with when you've never met someone before. Not only do I not have any hard feelings towards him but honestly respect the man, and unfortunately I can't say that about everyone.

In that light I went through and edited some of my posts in this thread. I'm not going to say graphite bodied TLDs are appropriate tackle for adult thresher sharks because they certainly are not made for Big Game but I did take the time to go back and remove some of the stuff where I was giving Pat a hard time.

As to Adult T Sharks.... Well they have come through every year since I've been fishing here with the majority of the big ones always showing up in May. This year if I'm here I will target them and my goal is to put a full sized adult over three hundred on my smaller skiff fishing solo. A personal best would be icing on the cake, and if I don't get one it sure as hell will be fun trying, which is kind of the whole point anyway.

Tight lines and good fishing to you all, Jim

[PapaDave]

All the info here enabled me to land a 75lb T on my kayak last November. What a rush. I am aiming for a 100lb+ this year. April isn't a bad time to try either BTW.

[TJones]

if you fish on a kayak long enough , eventually you will catch things you had no intention of. what a happens if you hook a smaller model with medium gear and he spools you ? how fast would you be towed around ? and how dangerous would it be ? granted you'r knot holds at the hub like it should .

[TEAMFISH]

where did the BOTD section go? oh wait sorry wrong website.... :rolleyes:
thanks to Jim and Jim for the insight.

Beat me to it:D

[TJones]

getting to end of spool with something large on other end ? :kayak-surfer:

[madncrzydm]

So where would one that is basically new to fishing look to educate myself on some basic things i need to do to catch a thresher? Im not looking to catch a monster just get one on the hook and get experience with these things.

[monkeyfishturds]

I don't know about offshore at 100 fathoms, but in 10 to 20 fathoms i've only seen 6 to 8 foot threshers caught in recent years. In 2006, i saw 10 to 12 foot sharks caught. Michael King's 12 1/2 foot total length thresher, was the largest one I saw. Does anyone have a length table that could estimate what that thresher weighed?

[maui jim]

Damn....am I too late to make popcorn???:cool:

[Fiskadoro]

Michael King's 12 1/2 foot total length thresher, was the largest one I saw. Does anyone have a length table that could estimate what that thresher weighed?

Yes there are charts are all over the web.

The NMFS Shark length weight Charts work on fork length, not total length. Without the fork length it's just a guess. Some say the fork length is half the full body length on T sharks, but personally I've found the the fork is usually is slightly more then half the body length.

Damn....am I too late to make popcorn???:cool:

Popcorn indeed.

I've probably seen more fights over guessing thresher weight online then any thing else. Years ago I caught a larger T fishing out of Redondo that I estimate at around 350 pounds or more. One day we were talking about catching Big Ts on Bloody Decks and Steve M the light line T shark expert asked me it's fork length and I said I don't know but I told him I thought the total length was something like 12'8" Steve came back and told me the shark was only 250 pounds according to the NMFS tables. I was like WTF that impossible the shark was as big around as a large trash can. We eneded up getting a huge fight about it.

Steve and I are now good friends and he put me on my first local Marlin a couple of years ago. I highly respect him as a person, as an angler, and know that even though he can be a hard ass when it comes to fishing he's not only serious but pretty FN straight up. I now realize he wasn't being and ass back on BD but just going by the book.

As it turned out the problem was not with Steve's estimate at all. Months after the online fight I was down at the old Dock and talking to Richie my slip neighbor and we started talking about online fishing idiots and their ridiculous drama. I told him about Steve and his estimate for my shark. Richie was like: WTF Dude your shark was pushing like 400 pounds. I'm like yeah that's what I thought but the charts say a 12' 8" or shark with around a 6.5' fork length is only 250 pounds. Ritchie started laughing and said: Yeah Jim but your shark was 14' 8" I know because I'm the guy who measured it. :D

Let's just say I'm better at fishing then with numbers. Ritchie produced the documentation where he wrote down the length and I realized that basically I got in a huge fight with Steve over nothing just because I'd forgotten the length and said the wrong number when asked.

In all fairness the difference between 12'8" and 14' 8" is huge on paper but when your used to catching things 3, 4, 5 foot long they are both seem monstrously huge.

So with that in mind. If I had to guess a 12.5 foot total length Thresher I'd say it would likely have around a 6.5 fork length which would put it's weight at around 250 pounds. A 14.5 foot Thresher would have closer to a 7.5 foot fork length and weigh in at around 365 pounds.

I don't know who Mike King is. Never heard of him. I know some Mike's who fish in Malibu but they are not big thresher fisherman.

If the Thresher was in fact 12.5 feet it was probably around 250 pounds, still a young shark, not a true adult and if female not yet mature enough to breed.

Here's a good graph that been around for years.

http://na.nefsc.noaa.gov/sharks/lw/thresh.jpg

You might notice that the Females do not even mature until around 14+ feet or 300+ and after that their weights vary wildly depending on if they are carrying pups.

That is catch Data from the Atlantic but weight to length I've found it to be more comparable to our local fish then the standard NMFS National Marine Fisheries Sevice chart.

At any rate a 12 1/2 foot T shark from a kayak is a fn Monster. Of course you couldn't land that fish just anywhere. The beauty of Malibu especially when they come into corral canyon is it's shallow and they can't sound all your line off like they can in deep water or when offshore. I've never caught one that big off a kayak it's the largest I've heard of and no doubt that would be that place to do it.

[Fiskadoro]

I hope there is a better showing of threshers along the coast this spring. I don't know about offshore at 100 fathoms, but in 10 to 20 fathoms i've only seen 6 to 8 foot threshers caught in recent years. In 2006, i saw 10 to 12 foot sharks caught.


I guess it depends on what you mean by big, or adult. You might see some of the larger sub adult fish in Malibu. It's unlikely but possible. Most people think a 10 to 12 foot T shark is an Adult, but they are still sub adult Threshers.

It's really all about the migration patterns.

The larger adults migrate through offshore, heading up the coast around Point Conception and then North up to Oregon and beyond. The smaller, and younger pups migrate inshore moving slower, bunching up in large groups, sometimes stopping for extended periods. Everyone pretty much knows that but now I'm going to tell you something you probably don't know. I think the vast majority of smaller juvenile sharks never leave the So. Cal bite and stay in the warmer waters south of Point Conception.

T sharks are endothermic, meaning they are warm blooded. Water conducts heat away from your body with relentless efficiency much faster then air, so in order to keep their body temperature up T sharks have to eat a lot of food. The colder the water the more they have to eat to stay warm.

Earlier in the thread I talked about how strong adult threshers are. Pretty much everyone who's fished for them or studied them agrees that these sharks once the mature are the supreme athletes of the shark world. They might not be as fast as a Mako but pound for pound they outfight all the other sharks and are comparable in strength to the greatest fighters of the sea swordfish and giant bluefin tuna. Something happens with their biology when they go through puberty and suddenly the are the biggest badass of the sea. It's almost like they are a whole other species.

So why is that?

Why would a shark that feeds mainly on Sardines and Anchovies need to be that athletic? Why would an animals biology and behavior change so dramatically when it get's older. Natural selection doesn't select traits that are not needed, so why are these sharks so tough in adulthood.

Well I'd say it's about the migration. The adult T Sharks round point conception head north following the huge northern sub population sardine migration to their spawning grounds. They have to brave the cold waters of the California Current which runs against them, feed on the move but at the same time keep up with their peers. So unlike the pups which stay in one place for extended periods they are constantly on the move. The water temps are much colder then down here so they have to eat enough on the move to not only keep going but keep their body temperatures up in the colder water. It's kinda like spawning salmon running up a river, or better yet Tuna and Yellowtail. Yellows are tough fish but they can stay in one place, stop feeding, and just hang. Tuna are always on the move and have to eat to survive. It's a more demanding or harsher way for them to live so they have to be tougher and more athletic to survive.

The Pups can't do it they are simply not athletic enough to hunt down enough food to make the journey. So they stay down here in the So. Cal. bite where the water is ten to twenty degrees warmer and they feed on the Southern Sardine population which spawns local. It's actually a brilliant adaption. They both feed on the same things, but while the young ones live in the easier warmer environment and feed local, the adults are adapted to a long migration into a much harsher environment where they can feed aggressively without competing with their young for the same food source.

That's the key. It's about food and survival. That's why the pups have a different migration pattern then the adults, that's why the pups stay inshore and the Adults stay offshore, and that's why the Adults fight so much harder then the pups. They are simply tougher, because they are adapted to live in harsher conditions to survive.

Puberty is a bitch and it can be confusing. Sub adults like then ten and twelve footers your describing from Malibu are not yet true adults. From my experience Ts over 175 pounds generally migrate North with the adults. Then again I always run into them while fishing for adult T's. I have no doubt that the sub adult fish I've seen if left unmolested would of complete the full migration, but do to what I've read about their growth rate, I would guess it was the first attempt.

The Adult Migration pattern is actually pretty well known.

They come up the coast in groups, packs or waves, five, ten, twenty sometimes even hundreds fish traveling together, working bait concentrations on upwellings offshore in deep water. The 9 mile bank, deep water areas off La Jolla, Oceanside, Dana and Newport, all see adult fish every year.

After Newport they swing out to avoid the shallow flats in front of Pedro then cross the channel outside the rigs. They then work North past Catalina but the population splits with some of the Adult sharks working up the front side and some working up the back side.

Those that choose the backside route then head up passing SBI on the outside, circle outside around the channel islands and head up the coast to Oregon. We don't fish those sharks but the commercials get them and they are there at the same times every year.

The fish that go up inside of Catalina cross the 286, the boot, pass east of SBI, follow the inside edge of the ridge up past the hidden reef. They then have another split short of Anacapa like the one at Catalina where some of the sharks cross over the ridge and go around outside the channel islands then up the coast to Oregon, and some others stay inside and go up the channel inside of Cruz in front of Santa Barbara and then round Point conception and head up the coast as well.

None of this is written in stone and the Sharks always are responding to conditions but these patterns are predictable, they happen every year, and fisherman especially the commercials who target them use these patterns to plot their migration and catch them year after year.

All the guys I know that reliably fish adults in the LA area target them out between the boot and the hidden reef more then twenty miles offshore of Malibu. My largest was taken East of the boot closer to the 286, but it was still way offshore.

What I'm saying here is that Malibu is not like Newport. It's not normal stop on the Adult migration pattern, but some larger fish can end up there with the right chain of events. No-one can give you a definitive answer as to why, but I've thought about it a lot and I'll give you my take.

Like I said sub adults or sharks that are 175+ pounds travel with the adults but it's probably their first attempt at the migration. Some years we have really clean water and a ton of fin bait in the area inside the 286 between the 270 and the deep water in Redondo canyon. I think if the conditions are just right those sub adult fish can get distracted follow the bait in feeding on them and they essentially just loose the migration.

These are sharks that probably just the year before worked up the coast tight to shore, so the combination of clean deep water and lots of food is enough to get them off course.

I've seen ten to 12 ft T sharks on bait in Redondo Canyon, I know that occasionally they end up in there, and I think once they are in there they then get confused and don't know how to get back to the main body of the migration.

True Adults who've made the migration before are probably less likely to do this, but sub adults who have not fully adapted to the adult migration pattern might be susceptible and once in the Canyon they are separated from the majority of the migration and are then left to figure things out for themselves.

They have they instinct to continue North so the work North along the 100 fathom curve which puts them on a direct course for Malibu, but when they hit the shallows off Malibu they are caught on the wrong side of Point Dume and don't know where to go next.

Maybe they then mix in with Pups, or if there is a ton of bait in there they might come in tight to the beach to feed before they figure out how to circumvent Dume and continue on their migration. At any rate they sometimes end up in there and that's when you end up getting those larger Ts in Malibu, but it's not something that happens all the time as it's purely a product of a set of unique conditions.

So do true adults 350+ pound threshers come into Malibu beaches? Not normally, it could happen but it's extremely rare. I don't know of anyone whose caught a true adult T over 350 pounds close to the beach at Malibu.

Do some sub adult fish in the ten to twelve foot range come into the beach there? Yes they do occasionally but these fish are probably just lost and it's not part of the standard adult migration pattern.

Are they going to come in this year?

Well that's a good question, but pretty impossible to answer. It all depends on what the conditions are when they pass the 270, at least that would be my take but the truth is there is no way know, or to predict it. The only way to know those sharks are in Malibu is to run into them, that's because it's a random fluke and not part of the standard migration.

So that's my take on the subject Mike. Maybe a little more then you wanted.

Personally I love talking about sharks, looking at data plotting their migrations etc...
I can't wait for another year to go by, so you can bring this up again. :D