Catch & Release Discussion

[dsafety]

Imported from a previous thread.

<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by dsafety http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/showthread.php?p=51053#post51053)
Good point but the bottom line is that we should never take more than we can use. If someone can consume 100 lbs of fresh fish in a week or two than they should definitely keep that much fish if they can catch it.

On the other hand, if you harvest more than you can use and a bunch of it ends up in the freezer only to get tossed out when you catch your next big fish, that is wasteful. It makes no sense to me to kill a fish and then send it to the land fill.

To me, there are two great things about fishing... catching and eating. The catching part ends when you get the fish to the yak. If you need the meat, stick the gaff. If not, take a photo and release the fish.

It does not matter if you are one guy on a kayak or part of a large group on a PB, the rules should be the same. Take what you need... use what you take. It's as simple as that.

Bob

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Driftwood Responded:

"Nobody should judge how much fish one can consume in a certain amount of time. Fish doesn't last long in my freezer. I would have no problem keeping two 52bl Y.T. caught in the same day and only post one. that would be enough fish for 6 months. If you use a food saver the fish Will stay almost fresh for a year.

I would love to practice catch and release. My problem is the same as 95% of kayak fishing guys out there. I spend HUNDREDS of hours on the water and maybe catch one or two Y.T. a year if I'm lucky. last year I caught two 30lb Y.T. on the squid run which lasted for about 3 days.

If i would of caught 5 Y.T. during the squid run I would of kept them all - because that would have been itttt- for the whole year. The squid run only comes once a year and last for maybe three day. If your lucky enough to fish in that small window, good for you! and if your like me, (no fish catching fool) I hope you catch your limit!! :rolleyes: OK, maybe 5 would suffice."

Dorado added:

"Thanks for the incite and concern for people taking more fish than you wish,Bob, I've never released a Yellowtail in my life! I only stop fishing for them when I get limits or my arms fall off! I may practice catch and release on yellows someday but not "today".

Bob again:

While I am disappointed that apparently a significant number of people whom I respect do not share my opinion on the subject of Catch and Release, I think it is great that we can have this discussion.

First I have to admit that while I support the practice, I have never actually released a big YT or WSB either. I have only caught a few YT and only one WSB. In each case, I wanted the meat so harvesting was a no brainier. Would I have released the second or third fish had I been lucky enough to catch them on any of those days. You bet. But maybe that's just me. I know that others share my point of view because I have watched a few guys release some really nice fish.

We may disagree on a number of issues relating to this subject but I hope we can all agree on this. Our fisheries and particularly La Jolla, may be in great shape today but that is due to a large degree to the fact that fishermen have become much more responsible than we were just a few years ago. This needs to continue. If we abuse this resource it could be taken away from us. Witness the recent MLPA sideshow.

Bob





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[dos ballenas]

Our fisheries and particularly La Jolla, may be in great shape today but that is due to a large degree to the fact that fishermen have become much more responsible than we were just a few years ago.

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I doubt this, or that catch and release has anything to do with why there have been some nice yellowtail, wsb, and halibut caught around La Jolla in recent years. Especially since there have been even more sportfishermen(and kayakers) otw in recent years.

Are you talking about commercial or sportfishermen?

I can speculate about many other reasons which I think have had a more significant effect on the fisheries off southern California, but the fact is we still know very little about a lot of the species which have been stated here to be in great shape.

In reality, I think many of these local fisheries are sustainable, but nowhere near as good or great as they were in years past. Just because there weren't internet fishing forums ten years ago doesn't mean there weren't big yellowtail swimming off La Jolla, or big tuna just offshore.

There may have been less people around to enjoy La Jolla, or brag about it, but thats just the population... San Diego was a much smaller town not a long time ago.

Just like anything, yellowtail have good and bad years. Their populations will fluctuate naturally from year to year depending on many factors.

WSB may be a different story because they were heavily over fished by the inshore gillnetters until the 80', when nearshore gillnetting was banned. Since then wsb have been coming back, possibly due to many factors.

I don't see the wsb populations recovering because most sportfishermen are suddenly releasing them... in fact, many sportfishermen are still looking for their fisrt legal wsb.

The fishing may get good sometimes in La Jolla, and there may be a lot of fish caught, but I think these fish move up and down the coast more than we realize. I'm sure they have patterns and preferences. La Jolla is just one of their favorite restaurants!

[GregAndrew]

I see points on both sides of this argument. For me it comes down to a simple question. "Would I be ok with everyone doing this?". Each persons answer to this question will be different based on their individual circumstances and values.

[driftwood]

Bob, If you were to go on a 3 day fishing trip for albacore wouldn't you want to catch your limit? Especially if you can only afford to do it once a year. My point is this... we should not be so quick to judge anybody unless you know all the facts. Everybody has diffrent circumstances and schedules. some guys can only fish maybe 10 times a year. If that man comes in with 3 Y.T. on his yak in the same day who am i to judge?

I do agree with the idealogy of catch and ralease. But lets not be so quick to judge anybody unless you know all the facts. Too many people tend to respond negatively based only on pure jeoulsy and i think that is ignorance.

[Gino]

I see points on both sides of this argument. For me it comes down to a simple question. "Would I be ok with everyone doing this?". Each persons answer to this question will be different based on their individual circumstances and values.


good model to go by.

keep what you will eat, keep enough of it, but dont disrespect it

[deepdvr]

Bob....according to you, your wife won't eat any of the fish you catch. That means your quota is half of everyone else. :cheers1:

[dsafety]

Bob, If you were to go on a 3 day fishing trip for albacore wouldn't you want to catch your limit? Especially if you can only afford to do it once a year. My point is this... we should not be so quick to judge anybody unless you know all the facts. Everybody has different circumstances and schedules. some guys can only fish maybe 10 times a year. If that man comes in with 3 Y.T. on his yak in the same day who am i to judge?

I do agree with the ideology of catch and release. But lets not be so quick to judge anybody unless you know all the facts. Too many people tend to respond negatively based only on pure jeoulsy and i think that is ignorance.


Driftwood, you make a very good point. And my answer is that I would likely catch and keep my limit if possible and can or freeze my bounty for future consumption.

Your question is not quite fair, however. I see a big difference between a going long range trip to the somewhere in the middle of the ocean and taking care of our own back yard. The point that I am trying to get across is that for many of us just going fishing is the big joy. Catching, on those sometimes rare occasions that we get lucky is the payoff. Harvesting the fish if you don't need to is a decision that each of us needs to make then the situation arises.

Would I suggest that any of us release their first trophy fish. Hell no! But if the stars all align and you catch more than you can possibly use during a given period, the responsible thing in my opinion is to release the fish that you do not need. Maybe that fish that you did not kill on your last trip will be the only one that takes your bait on the next trip.

Let's be clear on my position here. I used to consider myself an environmentalist until that description was hijacked by a bunch of wackos. I still strongly believe that we need to take care of the plant if we want to continue to live here comfortably but believe that moderate solutions are preferable to drastic ones.

At home, I turn of lights that do not need to be on. In my garden, I try to use organic fertilizers whenever possible. When there is a water shortage, I try to reduce the amount of water that I use. I fish from a kayak in part because it is just about the most environmentally friendly way to get out on the water. Do these things mark me as some sort of a tree hugging nutcase. I hope not.

All I am trying to get across here is that we are damned lucky to have a resource like La Jolla where we can hang out with friends while enjoying the best climate on the planet and occasionally catching some spectacular fish. I don't want to lose that privilege and I would like my grandkids to have the same opportunity.

Bob

[dsafety]

Bob....according to you, your wife won't eat any of the fish you catch. That means your quota is half of everyone else. :cheers1:
Good one and probably true.

Bob

[Matt]

Then you should step up and fight the mlpa instead of worrying about how many fish people keep!

[dsafety]

Then you should step up and fight the mlpa instead of worrying about how many fish people keep!

I am not sure where that statement came from but for the record, I plan to do both.


Bob

[dorado50]

Then you should step up and fight the mlpa instead of worrying about how many fish people keep!


X2...what about the Mexican seiners that wrap the migrating Yt off the Coronado Islands bound for LJ and beyond. I don't think you have a view of the overall picture of what really goes on in other countries,especially Mexico. I know for a fact kayak fisherman and private boats have no impact on our fisheries whatsoever. Wrapping 10 million lbs. of yellowfin,yellowtail,sharks,albacore, and all other by-catch (yearly)is what affects Calif. fisheries. Y u so worried about LJ anyway?

[TCS]

At least I won't have to go to BD to see a good catfight. Bust out the popcorn!

[dsafety]

X2...what about the Mexican seiners that wrap the migrating Yt off the Coronado Islands bound for LJ and beyond. I don't think you have a view of the overall picture of what really goes on in other countries,especially Mexico. I know for a fact kayak fisherman and private boats have no impact on our fisheries whatsoever. Wrapping 10 million lbs. of yellowfin,yellowtail,sharks,albacore, and all other by-catch (yearly)is what affects Calif. fisheries. Y u so worried about LJ anyway?

Dorado, I am sure that you are correct in what you have written about the foreign and commercial fishing impact. Unfortunately, you and I have no control over that and we both know that our Government is not interested in solving this problem. No money or votes to be gained there.

I believe that you are incorrect, however, when you say that "kayak fisherman and private boats have no impact on our fisheries whatsoever". If that is the case, where did all the Black Sea Bass go 40 years ago. Why is the average size of a local rockfish only a pound or two these days when they were five times that size just a few years back. Neither of these types of fish were ever a commercial target. The change came as a result of irresponsible recreational fishing practices years ago. Sure, things are improving but we have to stay the course.

Everything we do has an impact. All I am suggesting is that we all behave responsibly.

Why am I so worried about La Jolla? That is a surprising question coming from a veteran yakfisher. To me and a lot of others in this part of the world La Jolla is the single most important fishing destination in the region. No other place comes close.

Bob

[cioppino]

Dorado, I am sure that you are correct in what you have written about the foreign and commercial fishing impact. Unfortunately, you and I have no control over that and we both know that our Government is not interested in solving this problem. No money or votes to be gained there.

I believe that you are incorrect, however, when you say that "kayak fisherman and private boats have no impact on our fisheries whatsoever". If that is the case, where did all the Black Sea Bass go 40 years ago. Why is the average size of a local rockfish only a pound or two these days when they were five times that size just a few years back. Neither of these types of fish were ever a commercial target. The change came as a result of irresponsible recreational fishing practices years ago. Sure, things are improving but we have to stay the course.

Everything we do has an impact. All I am suggesting is that we all behave responsibly.

Why am I so worried about La Jolla? That is a surprising question coming from a veteran yakfisher. To me and a lot of others in this part of the world La Jolla is the single most important fishing destination in the region. No other place comes close.

Bob

We americans are just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to commercial over-fishing. Dont just point the finger at the Mexicans.

Bob when it comes to local fish you have to realize that they were and are commercially targeted. Commercial fishing by definition is the act of taking fish from the ocean for the purpose of profit. Well last I checked half day and three quarter day boats werent running out there to bring home fillets to the family. They were and are doing it strictly for cash in the pocket.
A fishing pole is not much different than a commercial Jack pole, just more line and sometimes more hooks. So now you have four half day boats and two or three three quarter day boats heading out when business is good. Shoot might as well fill em up to capacity, after all its not about fishing pleasure its about selling as many tickets as you can. So all those boats add up to about two hundred or so fishermen a day running out to la jolla, oh yeah don forget about the twilight boat, wouldnt want to give the fish a break. Do that everyday for an entire summer and fall or for as long as you can sell a ton of tickets. Shoot that adds up to tens of thousands of lines hitting the water locally a month. That adds up to some serious commercial fishing pressure if you ask me. That my friend is why a calico over twelve inches is so hard to come by towards the end of summer and why rockfish are so small.

The problems are numerous and BIG. Pollution, commercial pressure, cattle boat pressure. Not sure what to do about it Bob. The DFG should take a good hard look at size and take limits. Might be the only way to truly help our local fish species.
Honestly the yak community is the smallest part of the equation. I understand your concern Bob, but man there are bigger fish to fry.

[dorado50]

We americans are just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to commercial over-fishing. Dont just point the finger at the Mexicans.

Bob when it comes to local fish you have to realize that they were and are commercially targeted. Commercial fishing by definition is the act of taking fish from the ocean for the purpose of profit. Well last I checked half day and three quarter day boats werent running out there to bring home fillets to the family. They were and are doing it strictly for cash in the pocket.
A fishing pole is not much different than a commercial Jack pole, just more line and sometimes more hooks. So now you have four half day boats and two or three three quarter day boats heading out when business is good. Shoot might as well fill em up to capacity, after all its not about fishing pleasure its about selling as many tickets as you can. So all those boats add up to about two hundred or so fishermen a day running out to la jolla, oh yeah don forget about the twilight boat, wouldnt want to give the fish a break. Do that everyday for an entire summer and fall or for as long as you can sell a ton of tickets. Shoot that adds up to tens of thousands of lines hitting the water locally a month. That adds up to some serious commercial fishing pressure if you ask me. That my friend is why a calico over twelve inches is so hard to come by towards the end of summer and why rockfish are so small.

The problems are numerous and BIG. Pollution, commercial pressure, cattle boat pressure. Not sure what to do about it Bob. The DFG should take a good hard look at size and take limits. Might be the only way to truly help our local fish species.
Honestly the yak community is the smallest part of the equation. I understand your concern Bob, but man there are bigger fish to fry.


Pretty much hits the nail on the head! Like I said,"kayak fisherman and private boats have no impact on our fisheries at all".

[lamb]

I doubt this, or that catch and release has anything to do with why there have been some nice yellowtail, wsb, and halibut caught around La Jolla in recent years. Especially since there have been even more sportfishermen(and kayakers) otw in recent years.

Are you talking about commercial or sportfishermen?

I can speculate about many other reasons which I think have had a more significant effect on the fisheries off southern California, but the fact is we still know very little about a lot of the species which have been stated here to be in great shape.

In reality, I think many of these local fisheries are sustainable, but nowhere near as good or great as they were in years past. Just because there weren't internet fishing forums ten years ago doesn't mean there weren't big yellowtail swimming off La Jolla, or big tuna just offshore.

There may have been less people around to enjoy La Jolla, or brag about it, but thats just the population... San Diego was a much smaller town not a long time ago.

Just like anything, yellowtail have good and bad years. Their populations will fluctuate naturally from year to year depending on many factors.

WSB may be a different story because they were heavily over fished by the inshore gillnetters until the 80', when nearshore gillnetting was banned. Since then wsb have been coming back, possibly due to many factors.

I don't see the wsb populations recovering because most sportfishermen are suddenly releasing them... in fact, many sportfishermen are still looking for their first legal wsb.

The fishing may get good sometimes in La Jolla, and there may be a lot of fish caught, but I think these fish move up and down the coast more than we realize. I'm sure they have patterns and preferences. La Jolla is just one of their favorite restaurants!

Owyn, 100% with you :cheers1:

C&R is a great thing.
It's the fact that catching fish AND eating it is what lot's of sportfishermen are about. Nothing wrong with it, it's legal. We should stop pretending that we don't kill some fish when we do. If we keep talking that we do, I don't think the enviros will like us any better - we're still hurting "their" fish. :rolleyes:

It seems to me that we all develop our own ways and preference for C&R over time. I used to be "shoot all that moves" kind of fisherman, D50 club. I'm not as "cruel" nowadays. :) I now like to release all bass, will let barely legal halibut live, mostly release those one year old summer YT rats. I occasionally eat them too, it's dictated by the current situation in the fridge/freezer. I never freeze YT. We eat it while fresh, leftovers we hand out to take care of good friends. I hear over and over how much they loved it. I throw a pitch how crazy close we're getting to having the opportunity to bring such a great fresh seafood treat to the table... ;)

[FISHIONADO]

This won't be a popular opinion here but I think going fishing with the intent to catch and release is silly. Basically, you get your kicks out of fooling fish into biting your lure, allowing them to fight for their life and exhaust them, take them out of the water and possible damage them, then feel good about yourself for releasing a spent fish who is now a big target for other predators.

I stop fishing after I have 20+ pounds of fish. After a 40 or 50 lb fish I might not go out again for a couple of months. Not saying everyone should do what I do, just sharing another opinion.

[dsafety]

We americans are just as guilty as anyone else when it comes to commercial over-fishing. Dont just point the finger at the Mexicans.

Bob when it comes to local fish you have to realize that they were and are commercially targeted. Commercial fishing by definition is the act of taking fish from the ocean for the purpose of profit. Well last I checked half day and three quarter day boats werent running out there to bring home fillets to the family. They were and are doing it strictly for cash in the pocket.
A fishing pole is not much different than a commercial Jack pole, just more line and sometimes more hooks. So now you have four half day boats and two or three three quarter day boats heading out when business is good. Shoot might as well fill em up to capacity, after all its not about fishing pleasure its about selling as many tickets as you can. So all those boats add up to about two hundred or so fishermen a day running out to la jolla, oh yeah don forget about the twilight boat, wouldnt want to give the fish a break. Do that everyday for an entire summer and fall or for as long as you can sell a ton of tickets. Shoot that adds up to tens of thousands of lines hitting the water locally a month. That adds up to some serious commercial fishing pressure if you ask me. That my friend is why a calico over twelve inches is so hard to come by towards the end of summer and why rockfish are so small.

The problems are numerous and BIG. Pollution, commercial pressure, cattle boat pressure. Not sure what to do about it Bob. The DFG should take a good hard look at size and take limits. Might be the only way to truly help our local fish species.
Honestly the yak community is the smallest part of the equation. I understand your concern Bob, but man there are bigger fish to fry.


Cioppino,

You are not going to get any disagreement from me on the points you mentioned above. I am sure that you are dead-on, including your statement that yakfishers are among the smallest dangers to a sustainable fishery. As a group, we are probably the most responsible fishers out there as well.

That does not alter my opinion that even though we may behave better than some others, we still need to do our best to help protect this resource we all love so much. I am hopeful that the PBers and Cattle Boat operators will do the same.

Most of us are already doing all the right things and that is terrific. Unfortunately, there are still a few among us who either disagree with this philosophy or have not yet gotten the message.

This thread began in response to some young guy bragging about how he was able to catch and kill three huge YT in three days. That was a remarkable feat that most of us will never experience. I am curious about what happened to all the meat from those fish. If it was all consumed or frozen to be eaten a few months from now, great. No harm, no foul.

If, on the other hand, some of those fish were killed for no reason other than so this gentleman could display his trophies and show off what a great fisher he is, I have a problem with that.

There is a world class fisherman among us who fishes nearly every day, mostly targeting YT and WSB. I have been beside this guy as caught and released a big YT. It was the first time I had seen this done. Later in the day, he caught another, which he kept. If he had caught a third on that day, I am sure it would have been released. I suspect that this great fisherman releases more fish during a typical season than most of the rest of us will catch in a lifetime. To me this is the responsible way to enjoy our sport.

Bob

[deepdvr]

Everyone has an opinion on it. My take....I don't give a shit what you do as long as I'm catching something. Stay within the regs and don't waste the resource. Some people drive gas guzzlers some people drive hybrids, some people prefer blondes some prefer brunettes. Personally I like em all! For me, its like the opportunity to have sex. It rarely, if ever, comes around for me, so when the opportunity does present itself you'd better believe I'm all over it and I'm taking all that I can. Except for that one time I ran out of money at the cul-de-sac of love just outside of Carson NV. :cheers1:

[Iceman]

This won't be a popular opinion here but I think going fishing with the intent to catch and release is silly. Basically, you get your kicks out of fooling fish into biting your lure, allowing them to fight for their life and exhaust them, take them out of the water and possible damage them, then feel good about yourself for releasing a spent fish who is now a big target for other predators.

I stop fishing after I have 20+ pounds of fish. After a 40 or 50 lb fish I might not go out again for a couple of months. Not saying everyone should do what I do, just sharing another opinion.Catch and release is not necessarily the most noble of things, give someone else the opportunity to get theirs. This sport is more of an addiction than therapy to some.

Dave, I can appreciate your perspective. I am satisfied with a good catch and savor that "mission accomplished" until the next time. I don't ever recall fishing 2 days in a row even if it is WFO.

[MVC]

I pretty much do my part by being a crappy fisherman. I never catch anything at La Jolla except Calico.

[steveooo]

Blast from the past



I never had any interest in being a sportsman. In some ways, I find the notion of hooking and potentially injuring fish just for pleasure, or "sport", less morally defensible than fishing for meat. Walking around the neighborhood trying to kick cats would be sport as well, but most would say somewhat cruel.

Providing fresh, organic, wild caught, non-netted, non-polluting, non-commercially processed seafood to people you care about, now that's a crime and a horrible example to set!

[dsafety]

Blast from the past

<TABLE style="BORDER-TOP-WIDTH: 0px" class=tborder border=0 cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=6 width="100%" align=center><TBODY><TR title="Post 51123" vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>Quote:
<TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=6 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD style="BORDER-BOTTOM: 1px inset; BORDER-LEFT: 1px inset; BORDER-TOP: 1px inset; BORDER-RIGHT: 1px inset" class=alt2>Originally Posted by madscientist http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwevb/showthread.php?p=6859#post6859)

I never had any interest in being a sportsman. In some ways, I find the notion of hooking and potentially injuring fish just for pleasure, or "sport", less morally defensible than fishing for meat. Walking around the neighborhood trying to kick cats would be sport as well, but most would say somewhat cruel.

Providing fresh, organic, wild caught, non-netted, non-polluting, non-commercially processed seafood to people you care about, now that's a crime and a horrible example to set!

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Interesting perspective Steveoo.

Do you think madscientist was suggesting that if we fish at all, we should kill and take everything we hook because making them fight for a while and then letting them go is cruel, just like kicking a cat?

I can see his point but I just don't agree.

Bob

[taggermike]

This sort of c&r versus cunsumption pissing match isn't helpful to anglers. To our oponents the very act of fishing is the problem. It's not what you take it's the fact that you fish at all that is the issue. Attacking each other doesn't help us but only provides ammo for zero fishing advocates. Obey the regs, eat what you take, and only critisize those that don't do the first 2. Mike

[Matt]

HELL YEAH TAGGERMIKE!!! HELL YEAH!!!

[steveooo]

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</td></tr></tbody></table>Interesting perspective Steveoo.

Do you think madscientist was suggesting that if we fish at all, we should kill and take everything we hook because making them fight for a while and then letting them go is cruel, just like kicking a cat?

Bob


I don't mean that I have any clue what he was trying to suggest. It is merely a quote that I found amusing when this topic came up several years back. Possibly another perspective to be considered? All i do know is that it has been so long since I've landed a large fish, that the ones I have caught in the past seen to keep increasing in quantity and quality in my mind. Cat kicking does seem decently fun though, so does fishing now that I think of it...

[yani]

Did someone say food?

[FISHIONADO]

I should have been more respectful when I said it was silly. Can I take that back? Some of my best friends are bass fishermen, my sister married one. :D

[blitzburgh]

This sort of c&r versus cunsumption pissing match isn't helpful to anglers. To our oponents the very act of fishing is the problem. It's not what you take it's the fact that you fish at all that is the issue. Attacking each other doesn't help us but only provides ammo for zero fishing advocates. Obey the regs, eat what you take, and only critisize those that don't do the first 2. Mike

AMEN to that! :iagree:

[lamb]

Oh, the legendary cat kicking analogy... :D

Bob, I am pretty sure that Madscientist wasn't suggesting anything, just providing his opinion. He loves to fish, like you and I do.

Sure thing that all of us won't agree on C&R subject, or lots of other subjects... Beautiful thing is - we don't have to agree! :)

[lamb]

I'd really like to hear what Yani has to say on this subject :)

[dsafety]

Oh, the legendary cat kicking analogy... :D

Sure thing that all of us won't agree on C&R subject, or lots of other subjects... Beautiful thing is - we don't have to agree! :)

Well said and I bet we can all agree on that.

Bob.

[dsafety]

I'd really like to hear what Yani has to say on this subject :)

I have been waiting for the Darkhorse, BillyV and PAL to chime in.

Bob

[FISHIONADO]

Sure thing that all of us won't agree on C&R subject, or lots of other subjects... Beautiful thing is - we don't have to agree! :)

Right on, that's what makes this country and our way of life worth fighting for.

[lamb]

I hear ya'. You've got to remember - it's not the same for Josh or PAL to chip in on this sensitive subject that seems to divide people, given that they've got professional ties; their words on public forum have different weight than the rest of us.

My bet would be they'd chip in some "politically correct" stuff, long live C&R...

Now Billy V, given just his accent, my guess would be "eat 'em all" club... :D

[Iceman]

this is the perfect place to voice your opinion, not in someones fishing report, get it off your chest.

[driftwood]

I have been waiting for the Darkhorse, BillyV and PAL to chime in.

Bob

Bob, I can't believe you just did that. Dropping names is never a class act.
you are glutton for punishment. this is how this whole debate got started.

you got your point across... now please stop.

[Fiskadoro]

Do you think madscientist was suggesting that if we fish at all, we should kill and take everything we hook because making them fight for a while and then letting them go is cruel

Fish are fish... people try to project human emotions on them.

Fish are fish, People are people, fisherman are fisherman.

I think anyone who fishes enough is going to run into times when they catch fish they do not want or need. I pretty much release everything except tuna, Yellows and Seabass, though I will occasionally keep lings, rockfish and bass for my friends.

Is it cruel to release fish? I don't think so. Look at it this way. Studies have shown that fish have much longer memories then they used to think and they have found that hook fish will avoid the same type of scenario that got them hooked for a year or more. It's like hey... your not hurting them your educating them... :D Besides it beats the alternative for the fish, no doubt if they had a vote...... :D

I think the real issue with catch and release is mortality. If your not killing fish and letting it go to waste it's not irresponsable.

I think tail hooked T's probably die so I keep them unless the revive right away. I don't fish white seabass catch and release unless they are in less the 15 ft of water due to the swim bladder issues. Striped bass, yellows, tuna, halibut calicos etc.... I think they all release well as long as you don't handle them, and screw up their slime layer, so I have no problem letting them go.

Rockfish, protected fish, fish that are undersized.... you do what you can, I drop my rockfish back down with a sink rig but who knows if they survive.

Bottom line I think this is a common sense thing. If you are catching yellows all day long, and releasing them... more power to you. The only issue I have with that scenario is if I'm not there to catch them with you. :D

Just my take though, Jim

[Billy V]

I can give you my personal opinion, custom and practice.

I'll try to keep it short.
I have been a hunter since I was 16 years old, rifle, shotgun, and now bow only. For me it was about the hunt and the skills required to stalk, not the kill.
Whether I fired on an animal came down to the circumstances of the moment:
Was it a proper buck to harvest ? Its age ? Is there meat in the freezer ? Was it the trophy of a lifetime, and meet some of the other requirements ? Time of day and distance back to camp ? Was I so enthralled with its beauty and the journey it led me on that It earned the right to survive ?

I have been fishing and crabbing since 5 years old and although I have caught many fish, the same principles apply.

I only take what will be eaten, and what is reasonable to me.
I release alot of fish, and won't take certain species.
Is it releasable, was it injured ? I have to consider the circumstances of the moment.
I try to maintain a balance.

I enjoy watching other people catching fish as much as catching them myself.:)

[FISHIONADO]

this is the perfect place to voice your opinion, not in someones fishing report, get it off your chest.

Thanks Andy. :D I usually keep my mouth shut on these issues but this seemed like a good opportunity to put everyone's opinions on the table. I don't think the C&R angle helps us in the MLPA process. Sustainable consumption is a compelling argument.

[Dan]

Do what feels right at the moment. The frozen coffers were running low and Sake steamed yellowtail with Asian chimichurri sauce and hamachi seaweed salad just seemed like the right call. :arne1:
http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwegallery/data/500/After.jpg

[blackcloud9]

Hi Bob, let me help you with some facts related to commercial fishing for Rockfish and Black Seabass ...... BOTH have been massively commercially harvested in the past.

Black Seabass: The fish was so heavily exploited in both California and Mexican waters that the commercial landings declined rapidly from 115 tonnes in 1932 to 5 tonnes in 1980 in California waters, whereas it decreased greatly from 363 tonnes to 12 tonnes in Mexican waters over the same period (Domeier 2001).

http://www.iucnredlist.org/apps/redlist/details/20795/0



Rockfish: During the 1980s rockfish landings averaged 45,800 metric tons per year; peak rockfish catch occurred in 1982 when over 61,000 metric tons were landed along the US West Coast (PacFIN 2005).

See page 9 at
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/content/media/MBA_SeafoodWatch_PacificRockfishReport.pdf



I won't even state my opinion on c&r here, but I could not let a false statement like that pass without comment.

[dsafety]

Thanks for the correction Larry. I was unaware that either of those types of fish were ever commercially fished to any degree in the coastal San Diego waters. I wonder if those fish counts came from the gill netters and long line fishers that used to ply these waters.

I have lived near the ocean all my life. This must have snuck past me somehow.

Bob

[THE DARKHORSE]

http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwegallery/data/500/No_pattern_pattern_018.jpg

































...Right into sixty pounds of ice :D.

[deepdvr]

One of the nicest photographs I've ever seen.

[Afran]

Thanks for the correction Larry. I was unaware that either of those types of fish were ever commercially fished to any degree in the coastal San Diego waters. I wonder if those fish counts came from the gill netters and long line fishers that used to ply these waters.

I have lived near the ocean all my life. This must have snuck past me somehow.

Bob

Google is your friend.

[yani]

http://www.bigwatersedge.com/bwegallery/data/574/slice_and_dice.jpg

[lamb]

LOL Sunday Bloody Sunday... :)

Yani, we are turning down your nomination for a sportfisherman of the year.

What happened there, an accident?-Did that shark ran into your yak 30 mph or something'??? :D

Josh, did yer photo biatch got the one when I was flapping with the wings? :D. Nice fish.:cheers1:

[blackcloud9]

Bob, you need to read up on California's checkered history with bottom-
trawling and gill netting, sounds like you may be familiar with the latter.

One commercial boat caught close to 2000 lb. of WSB in ONE NIGHT last
year in our local waters, on hook and line, at the kelpline. And gill nets
(outside of 3 miles) still account for more than 50,000 lbs of white
seabass each year in California - that's three more than Josh! <KNEE slap>

So, basically the numbers are staggering and I'm whole-heartedly agreeing
with all of dos ballenas, dorado50 and cioppino's great points on page one.


And in case you released all your fish ....

I recommend using the green, yellow, red seafood scale when considering
buying seafood.
http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/content/media/MBA_SeafoodWatch_WestCoastGuide.pdf

[dsafety]

Bob, you need to read up on California's checkered history with bottom-
trawling and gill netting, sounds like you may be familiar with the latter.

One commercial boat caught close to 2000 lb. of WSB in ONE NIGHT last
year in our local waters, on hook and line, at the kelpline. And gill nets
(outside of 3 miles) still account for more than 250,000 lbs of white
seabass each year in California - that's three more than Josh! <KNEE slap>



Thanks again Larry. My education continues.

Based on the majority of the responses to this thread, it appears that my position on C & R is not the prevailing one among our little group. That surprises me, but so be it. Just having this discussion is useful because it makes each of us take a closer look at the issue. There are plenty of valid arguments on all sides and a healthy discussion like this one gives everyone the opportunity see the big picture.

Your latest post startled me a bit. I had no idea that the gill netters were still allowed to operate as close as three miles from our shores. That is well within kayak fishing range. Even more startling was your statistic regarding the size of their WSB take. If someone who cares about this stuff as much as I do is unaware of this fact, we can be fairly certain that the majority of the MLPA backers, let alone the general public have no idea that this is happening. 250,000 lbs of WSB? That is 5000, fifty pound fish. Wow!

Your comment about the commercial boat catching 2000 lbs of WSB in one night also hit me. Was that a cattle boat or some other kind of commercial boat? If those fish were caught on a commercial fishing boat, (not a cattle boat), how did they get by the three fish per person limit, (one fish during the summer)?

Cattle boat issues could be a whole new discussion. This is a free country and commercial sportfishing is a legitimate activity that has been with us forever. Most of us have enjoyed a few trips on those kinds of boats over the years. The problem is that a successful trip on most of those boats is measured by the number of fish caught. Big fish, little fish, bi-catch, it all goes into the sack. I doubt that much C & R is practiced on the party boats.

Worse, that tourist from Iowa who filled his gunny sack with 50 pounds of whatever he could catch, probably did not eat any of those fish. After a photo session, his trophies probably ended up in the trash. This is perfectly legal but, in my view, very wrong.

On the other hand, plenty of responsible fishers, just like you and I, fish from the party boats because it is their only way to enjoy this sport. They do not have access to a private boat or kayak. Lets assume for a moment that the 2000 pounds of WSB caught on the night you mentioned were landed by 25 different people all fishing from a party boat during the time of year when the WSB limit is three fish per person. Everyone had a valid fishing license and paid good money to go on this trip. On this particular night, everyone got lucky and limited out.

While some of us may not like it, this would be perfectly legal. A trip like this would make the front page of the sport section in the paper and be featured prominently in the Convention and Visitor's Bureau's sales literature. A similar take could be made by 25 yakfishers during the next squid bite. Would it be unreasonable for all of these folks on that imaginary party boat to take their legal limit of our treasured WSB? Maybe. What if the harvest was made by a bunch of yakfishers?

Comments in this thread have hashed out both sides of that question. This is a tough issue.

Bob

[Iceman]

Josh that is definitely excessive, 40 pounds of ice would suffice! :D

...Right into sixty pounds of ice :D.

[bellcon]

Josh that is definitely excessive, 40 pounds of ice would suffice! :D

The FWPA
frozen water protection act
would prevent such waste


Doctor Yani
did the patient survive?:eek:
love to see that pic in the middle of Tylers next slide show
(real fast .5 second subliminal message)

[Billy V]

s.
Worse, that tourist from Iowa who filled his gunny sack with 50 pounds of whatever he could catch, probably did not eat any of those fish. After a photo session, his trophies probably ended up in the trash. This is perfectly legal but, in my view, very wrong.



This is a tough issue.

Bob

Its actually illegal to waste any game fish in California, but enforcing this law is nearly impossible.

"Although there is no limit at this time on the number of Humboldt squid that can be caught, anglers should be conservation-minded and take only what they can comfortably use. Landing reports indicate that large numbers of squid are not only being caught, but also being kept. The DFG is also receiving disturbing reports of a number of fishermen actually then dumping these dead squid when returning to the docks. Not only is this unethical but it also constitutes violations of wanton waste which is willfully wasting the state's fish resources (CCR Title 14 Section 1.87.)"

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/QandA/2009/20090205.asp

[blackcloud9]

(One correction to my last post - approx 250,000 lbs of WSB is the total commercial take of
seabass annually with approx 50,000 of that taken using gillnets)

May I suggest that you read the following WSB Report Card, end to end.
There are many mind boggling statistics in the charts, and, I promise that
you will learn a lot about the fish itself.

Page 6 shows in 1959, 3.5 million pounds of WSB was taken commercially
in California!!! Thats like 140,000 25 pound fish!!

http://www.montereybayaquarium.org/cr/cr_seafoodwatch/content/media/MBA_SeafoodWatch_WhiteSeabassReport.pdf

The boat I mentioned was a regular ol' commercial boat, one of 140 that
target white seabass in CA, not a CPFV (sportboat). A sportboat is not
licensed to catch commercially that's "sport take" not "commercial take",
and in CA, cannot be sold commercially. In other states besides CA,
things are different.

For many different reasons, the commercial guys are extremely silent
about what they catch. They catch it, and it goes to market, and they
make money. The less people that know how or when they caught fish,
the better for them. Go to the fish market, look at the fish - ever wonder
where those big WSB, and halibut come from?

BTW, Recreational catches are staggering too. Take a look at the table in
on the bottom of this page where it says "Annual Landing Totals" in black ...
http://www.sportfishingreport.com/pages/landingdetail.php?landing_id=20

From their own counts, in 2009, this landing alone sacked:
-- 41,000 calico bass
-- 37,000 rockfish
and
-- 12,000 yellowtail.

One landing.

I'm not out to pick on commercials, sporties or anyone, just thought I may
help you understand where many others on this board are coming from, as
I thought I saw the "disconnect". Your comments welcome.

[dos ballenas]

For many different reasons, the commercial guys are extremely silent
about what they catch. They catch it, and it goes to market, and they
make money. The less people that know how or when they caught fish,
the better for them. Go to the fish market, look at the fish - ever wonder
where those big WSB, and halibut come from?

.


BINGO!

These guys are otw for a living. And its not a some kind of secret. The ocean is a big and very dynamic ecosystem.

Anyways, back on the cnr subject...

fwi, most thresher sharks which are tail hooked and played to exhaustion do NOT recover from the battle after being released. Different species have different survivorship rates... fact, not all fish that are released are going to survive. Even fish that swim away apparently okay die sometimes. Once again, there are many reasons why released fish may or may not survive.

And... fish that are of legal size have usually spawned once or twice. Size limits are set to insure that each fish is given a chance to reproduce. I don't think you should feel bad for harvesting a big legal fish ever.



I used to be "shoot all that moves" kind of fisherman, D50 club. I'm not as "cruel" nowadays. :) I now like to release all bass, will let barely legal halibut live, mostly release those one year old summer YT rats.

I occasionally eat them too, it's dictated by the current situation in the fridge/freezer. I never freeze YT.

We eat it while fresh, leftovers we hand out to take care of good friends. I hear over and over how much they loved it.



A lot to be learned from this lamb guy... it aint bad getting free avocados from time to time...

For some people it takes a lot of yellowtail to realize that it don't freeze all that good!

Have fun! :cheers1:

[dsafety]

Larry,

Thanks again for the contining education.

One question though. Where do the recreational fish cactch numbers come from. Except for once last summer when some kid with a DFG shirt on asked me a bunch of questions about where I was fishing and what I caught, I have never been asked or reported a catch.

Assuming that I am not alone, I am curious as to where the numbers come from. Does someone just pull a number from a hat?

Bob

[blackcloud9]

Bob, Regarding recreational fish-catch counts, people that fish sportboats
are never asked because the boat and/or landing is required to provide
fish counts. Kayakers are more difficult to find, and most private boaters
are used to seeing the surveys at the launch/landing area (I believe).

And sorry, I forgot to answer your other question above regarding the
commercial guys and limits. Commercial fishermen are not regulated by
DFG "sport" limits, if any at all.

See http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/fishing.asp#Commercial for more info.

Larry

[dsafety]

Bob, Regarding recreational fish-catch counts, people that fish sportboats
are never asked because the boat and/or landing is required to provide
fish counts. Kayakers are more difficult to find, and most private boaters
are used to seeing the surveys at the launch/landing area (I believe).

And sorry, I forgot to answer your other question above regarding the
commercial guys and limits. Commercial fishermen are not regulated by
DFG "sport" limits, if any at all.

See http://www.dfg.ca.gov/marine/fishing.asp#Commercial for more info.

Larry

I know that you answered the question but if you read your answer, it seems that there are a lot of holes in the data collection techniques. Can we have any faith in the numbers that we have been presented?

Bob

[cioppino]

1968

Heres a good example of catch and release Bob. Unfortunately they all rushed the scuppers at the same time and failed to make it back in the water!

I love Cedros Island.

Our fisheries health starts and ends with commercial fishing. You can catch and release all you want if thats what makes YOU happy. As long as everyone follows the regs then any problem you have with it is just that, your problem.

I have made this comparison before but I will revisit it. Take a City lake for this analogy. Large mouth bass are not stocked. There is a reasonable take and size limit. They are targeted YEAR long almost everyday. Some fishermen take their limit every time, while others practice catch n release. Large mouth bass are not in danger of being over fished in these lakes. Anglers arent descimating LMB populations to the point of collapse. LMB are growing huge and their overall stocks are doing just fine.

I talk about fresh water bass fishing because it is a prime example of a controlled environment not subject to commercial fishing. It is a healthy and sustainable fishery without MLPAs and without seasonal closures.

Now lets take that same City lake and set me and my commercial gillnet boat loose in that same lake. In a matter of days you would have a fishery on the verge of collapse, one in diar need of serious regulating. What was once a ballanced and viable fishery for decades would be toast!

My final babbling point, Bob due what makes you happy. Just dont hassle someone who isnt breaking the law and is well within the state regs by taking three fish in a week. Dont fool yourself by believing releasing fish is going to bring back any fishery when those same fish get their buts kicked by commercial fishermen.

Get out there and catch some fish, you will feel a lot better.

[dsafety]

Cioppino,

You and I will continue to disagree on this subject but I respect your opinion and your right to have it. You and others have made some very valid points about the harmful affect that can come as a result of irresponsible commercial fishing activities. On that subject we are in total agreement.

I am hopeful that by starting this discussion I was not perceived to be "hassling" anyone in particular. That certainly was not my intent.

Bob

[Fiskadoro]

For some people it takes a lot of yellowtail to realize that it don't freeze all that good!


They freeze well if you freeze them whole.

For both tuna and Yellowtail I just cut the tails and heads off, gut them then roll them in butcher paper and freeze them whole with the skin on like the Japanese do.
http://www.smh.com.au/ffximage/2006/08/11/tuna12806_wideweb__470x311,0.jpg

My freezer looks like a stack of logs. When I want to eat one I pull it out cross cut the amount I want to eat that week off with my band saw, and throw the rest back in the freezer.

When it thaws, you cut the skin and exposed ends off its' sashimi quality, and you have a couple of days to eat it before it starts going bad.

Most sushi you eat at restaurants including Hamachi has been frozen, it's all in how you freeze it.

Jim

[-scallywag-]

I like this post, good points on each side without the "d-nossle" comments (i guess i like those too, but we have BD for that).

I will continue to look forward to the day that I get to release my next YT or WSB.....not because I think it will help the fishery, but for the same selfish reasons most of us fish....its an awsome experiece!! (and because if I'm releasing delisious YT or WSB, either the freezer's full or the bite is WFO and I'm weeding thru the schoolers lookin for my next PB!!).

FREEZING FISH:
I'm pretty sure they (commercial ships) flash freeze the fish to a super low temperature to minimize the amount of sublimation (freezer burn or de-hydration) that occurs, after that the fish are stored and transported in a "normal" freezer where they very slowly warm back up to just below freezing, which could take weeks. As long as the fish in the freezer are colder than the freezer itself sublimation, generally will not occur. Basically the opposite of freeze-drying. So from a scientific stand point I think that vacuum sealing/freezing is still the best way for us, but after reading Jims post I think vacuum sealing/freezing the whole fish would be even better, or more practical, in big chunks with the skin on.

[Pat]

I hear a nice flattie was released this morning. :doh:

[dgax65]

FREEZING FISH:
I'm pretty sure they (commercial ships) flash freeze the fish to a super low temperature to minimize the amount of sublimation (freezer burn or de-hydration) that occurs, after that the fish are stored and transported in a "normal" freezer where they very slowly warm back up to just below freezing, which could take weeks. As long as the fish in the freezer are colder than the freezer itself sublimation, generally will not occur. Basically the opposite of freeze-drying. So from a scientific stand point I think that vacuum sealing/freezing is still the best way for us, but after reading Jims post I think vacuum sealing/freezing the whole fish would be even better, or more practical, in big chunks with the skin on.

With a little advanced preparation and a little money you can easily come up with a close approximation of how they freeze fish on commercial vessels. The advanced preparation is buying dry ice and pre-chilling a cooler before you go fishing. It helps to have the dry ice in the cooler for at least several hours so that the interior of the cooler has been brought down as close to the dry ice temperature as it is going to get. This is also the expensive step. Dry ice is generally about $1/lb and you will probably need 10-20lbs. This works out OK if you know you are going to catch fish, but if you are like me, it could be a waste of money when you don't catch anything. When you get your catch ashore, you should remove the head and tail and gut it. Wrapping in butcher paper would help protect it as well. Just open the cooler long enough to slide the fish in. Once the fish is in the cooler, don't touch it or open the cooler for at least 12 hours. By then it should be rock-hard. If you plan on keeping it frozen for a while, you might want to bag and vacuum seal it before you transfer it to the freezer.

The advantage of the dry ice is that it freezes the fish much more rapidly than a regular home freezer. Evidently, rapid freezing results in smaller ice crystals, which do less damage to cell walls. This will give you a much better texture when thawed. I have done this a few times with YT and halibut and it seems to work very well. Freezing will also kill those nasty parasites, so you can use the fish for sashimi after thawing (even salmon and halibut).

BTW:This is also an excellent way to freeze delicate fruits like strawberry, blackberry and raspberry.

[peguinpower]

I think exercising moderation is a good thing. If you want to catch and release, cool. If you want to keep fish, thats good too. Try and not to keep too much.

Sharing your opinion in the hope that it may be considered, freedom of speech is with you on that one.

I don't agree on forcing other people to follow someone elses "morals". Tolerance is a good thing. Tolerance for other people's decisions and choices as well as how much fish they should keep.

This discussion has been civil. Ideas exchanged. :cheers1: