Shoulder Injuries?

[BT]

Looking for some help trying to get my shoulder back to normal.

Two weeks ago I was hooping and while pulling up a net I felt a nasty pull/tear/something in my right shoulder. By the end of the night, it felt like I was pulling up nets filled with concrete. Started the motrin, ice, heat, rest and that didnt work. Got some stronger anti inflammatory medication and that helped with the pain, but my right arm from the shoulder to my hand is weak. Unfortunately I have had this before in my left shoulder, and it was a torn labrum which I got surgery for and was down and out for 6 months. I dont want that, so I am seeing if anyone on here has had a similar experience and if they had any sort of alternative treatments that worked.

I am going to try and get some physical therapy, but I dont want to get the surgery, and I want to get back on my yak (and behind my drum kit) ASAP.

I have been told glucosimine (sp?), helps joints and I am going to try that.

Any other ideas? I am sure there are a decent amount of people on here that have had shoulder injuries due to paddling, and just looking for some help!

Thanks in advance!

[Jimmyz123]

Well unfortunately it sounds like you tore something for sure, and it's possible that you tore Labrum and/or possibly the upper part of your bicep. I know that it is not a good sound to be told that you may need surgery, but unless you have it repaired correctly it's not going to get better on its own. Back in March I ruptured my Bicep tendon and had to have surgery. I am just about 9 months post op and I'm telling you right now it was the best thing I could ever have done for it. If you are a relatively young person you do not want to be living with that much loss of strength the rest of your life. My suggestion would be to have the surgery, but I would for sure discuss it with your doctor and see what options you have. If the Motrin and such is not helping then it's going to need more than just pills. I wish you the best on this, it's a frustrating journey, but worth it.

[tattuna]

I tore my rotator cuff at the gym a couple years ago. Supraspinatus torn from the humerus. Still isn't healed. MRI shows it's about 30% torn, but because of the way I have to hold my arm when I tattoo, it won't heal. I did physical therapy for a while, but it seemed to hurt more than it helped. Got the swine flu and was out for a week. After I got over the flu it felt like my shoulder was healed. Turns out rest is what I needed. To this day rest is the only cure for me and I can't spend as much time on the yak as I used to. The surgeon said if I could take 3 months off of work it will probably heal on it's own. I wish I could afford to do that!

I don't want to do the surgery so I'm spending more time on boats and lakes and using more machines than free weights at the gym these days.

My best guess is you'll probably have to get an MRI to see exactly what's going on and treat it accordingly. If an MRI is out of the question at least see a good sports doctor and they should be able to pin point the problem. Make sure it's a SPORTS doctor though, general physicians won't cut it for something like that. I never had any idea how much a shoulder injury sucks till it happened to me.

Good luck and keep us updated on your progress.

[Iceman]

Based on extensive internet investigation, I would say that surgery is for people with out patience and recovery can be just as long regardless of treatment. I have had tears in the right and then a few years later the left. Alternating heat and ice is all I did, along with ibuprofen to reduce swelling and using my bad shoulder as little as possible. It seemed to take forever, but I am 100%

[BT]

Based on extensive internet investigation, I would say that surgery is for people with out patience and recovery can be just as long regardless of treatment. I have had tears in the right and then a few years later the left. Alternating heat and ice is all I did, along with ibuprofen to reduce swelling and using my bad shoulder as little as possible. It seemed to take forever, but I am 100%

Yeah Andy, I am with you there. That is what I am going for. When I had my left shoulder done (labrum tear, torn rotator cuff) I had done rehab for almost a year before I would let the doc cut on me. And he was a good doctor too (sports doc for Chargers and is a shoulder specialist) because he didnt want me to get any surgery I didnt want. Let me PT it until we both looked at each other and figured it wasnt going to heal on it's own. After that I had more PT (8 months) and my left shoulder felt better than my right (before this injury). I know the left injury is worse than this one, just because of the nature of my accident (rolled a truck off a cliff).

I will most likely go and get an MRI to see what I am dealing with, but I have Kaiser now as my health care, and those M'er F'ers take forever, so even if I wanted surgery right now, it is likely a looong time before I get in for that.

So if anyone has any alternate medical advice (besides Hobies and the sticky icky), I would love to hear it. I got a few sports massages that alleviated the pain a bit, and I may try acupuncture next, but I have NO idea where to go for that. I just know that I would be out minimum six months if I had surgery, and I would like to work through it and strengthen it while coping with the pain then having a useless arm for all that time post op.

But in the end if it doesn't heal I will get the surgery. Just trying to see if I can avoid it this time since this one will make it my 6th surgery in the past 8 years.

[MVC]

About a year and 1/2 ago I had the Supraspinatus torn completely from the bone in my left shoulder. No amount of rest and therapy was going to heal it. I would suggest that you go to a good orthopedist and have an MRI done. Then you will know what your options are.

[Jimmyz123]

Remember the longer you wait the more damage you could be doing to your injury.

When I hurt my arm I went to the doctor 2 days later and he had me in for surgery a week later to avoid further damage and to make the surgery as easy as possible. If it was the muscle rupturing the more you use it the more it will travel down your arm making the surgery more difficult if that's what is needed.

[StinkyMatt]

Being that this is a forum for guys that SOMETIMES outsmart a fish, we use a plastic stick to float among whales and sharks, and take chances between crashing walls of water on the beach, we are not the brainiest guys out there!

Dude, I had a shoulder surgery, after trying to take care of it different non surgical ways for a couple of years. Last January I had knee surgery, did not wait on this one at all.

Do not listen to US! You want to dick around with your shoulder.....there is a reason you are not the doctor.:D Seriously talk to people that can give you GOOD advice, not JUST advice.

If you reallly want help, buy a tendem kayak and lots of beer for your friend.:D

Hope that it is something that you can take care of easily.

[yakrider]

dislocated the right...and tore something in the left...
for both, physical therapy was the ticket to recovery...both shoulders are 100% for the most part...
just a word of note on physical therapy, both from personal experience and obsevation of others...
physical therapy works...but only if you are a participant...
just going to the apointment once a week don't cut it...they will give you daily excersizes to perfom...they must be done daily...
don't just go to the appointments, do the once a week deal, and then complain how physical theray doesn't work! you gotta do what they say!

[Jimmyz123]

dislocated the right...and tore something in the left...
for both, physical therapy was the ticket to recovery...both shoulders are 100% for the most part...
just a word of note on physical therapy, both from personal experience and obsevation of others...
physical therapy works...but only if you are a participant...
just going to the apointment once a week don't cut it...they will give you daily excersizes to perfom...they must be done daily...
don't just go to the appointments, do the once a week deal, and then complain how physical theray doesn't work! you gotta do what they say!

I have to agree with this post 100%. When I was doing my PT I actually did more than what they recommended because I felt that I could and I was able to be released from PT 2 months early.

For your safety and all go get an MRI so that you know what you are dealing with.

[bigbarrels]

About a year and 1/2 ago I had the Supraspinatus torn completely from the bone in my left shoulder. No amount of rest and therapy was going to heal it. I would suggest that you go to a good orthopedist and have an MRI done. Then you will know what your options are.


X2

or have your family doc ordered the MRI and if positive refer you to the orthopedist (if Kaiser works like an HMO). Good luck!

[BT]

Thanks for the advice everyone, and trust me, I have all the appointments made (that I CAN make with Kaiser), but I think what didnt come over in my post was that Kaiser is the biggest problem (HMO on crack). It usually takes 2-4 months to get a date for a procedure there, so I want to check out all the alternatives in the mean time, and maybe avoid the surgery.

My last three surgeries were done as soon as I knew I needed them, I just remember the long road my shoulder was after the surgery.

I have also had doctors tell me they recommended surgery and have healed 100% without it.

So I am just looking for alternative methods in the mean time because I know I will have to wait to get anything done thru Kaiser.

And Stinky Matt, trust me....I NEVER LISTEN TO ANYONE ON THIS BOARD!!! LOL. Just looking for ideas from people who may have alternative ideas. If I have to get the surgery I will, I just would rather not, just like everybody else.

[erinoo]

dislocated the right...and tore something in the left...
for both, physical therapy was the ticket to recovery...both shoulders are 100% for the most part...
just a word of note on physical therapy, both from personal experience and obsevation of others...
physical therapy works...but only if you are a participant...
just going to the apointment once a week don't cut it...they will give you daily excersizes to perfom...they must be done daily...
don't just go to the appointments, do the once a week deal, and then complain how physical theray doesn't work! you gotta do what they say!


Your most correct Josh, you gotta participate in the therapy and NOT just during the supervised sessions. My Daughter is a P/T and she will tell ya, the ones that don't recover or as fast as they could, are the people that don't dont perform the exersizes as and when told to....Eric

[steveooo]

Hobie

[Jimmyz123]

Hobie

He still needs to have some muscle in order to pull those nets and the fish.

[BT]

Hobie

LOL steveooo...I said that wasn't an option....even though I am eyeing the PA. But since fully loaded that thing weighs almost 140lbs, I am still gonna need some strength before I pick up one of those. And I just looked on Hobie's website. It is listed under boats, and not kayaks?

[bubblehide]

dislocated the right...and tore something in the left...
for both, physical therapy was the ticket to recovery...both shoulders are 100% for the most part...
just a word of note on physical therapy, both from personal experience and obsevation of others...
physical therapy works...but only if you are a participant...
just going to the apointment once a week don't cut it...they will give you daily excersizes to perfom...they must be done daily...
don't just go to the appointments, do the once a week deal, and then complain how physical theray doesn't work! you gotta do what they say!


Amen brada!

[steveooo]

LOL steveooo...I said that wasn't an option....even though I am eyeing the PA. But since fully loaded that thing weighs almost 140lbs, I am still gonna need some strength before I pick up one of those. And I just looked on Hobie's website. It is listed under boats, and not kayaks?


I know, I know. Just testing the water :D A shoulder injury is what originally got me into a Hobie over 5 years ago. I still have a very limited range of motion in my shoulder, which is most likely due to scar tissue from me being stupid and not taking care of the original injury.

My major in college was Kinesiology/ Sports Medicine. We worked on alot of bum shoulders. I think there is a good mix of sound advice here. I think Charles was going in the direction that I would initially tell you to go. Best thing you can do is let the body try to repair the damage on its own initially. For shoulders, this usually means to immobilize it, which is a pain in the butt, but effective. You can buy a shoulder sling at walgreens for pretty cheap. I'd get one that supports the shoulder, as well as straps it to the body. You use your arm so much in the day, it's too easy to cheat with the ones that don't have the body strap. Even sleep with it, I'm sure you've already woken yourself up with shooting pain from moving your arm around a night? I know I do when I re-injure mine. Strap your arm up with your hand elevated higher than your elbow. For the first week, do ice only for about 20 min, 5X a day.

After the week of rest, light movement is good. Your body will tell you what is appropriate. Like Andy said, you can switch between heat and ice now, and start looking at some PT.

Also, like it already has been mentioned, if you do PT, it will only be as effective as you apply yourself to it. This is where the advice of someone qualified to evaluate your injury would be helpful. You don't want to download a generic shoulder PT program off the internet, because there will be some movements that wont be appropriate to do with certain types of injuries, and you could be doing more harm than good. If you have good insurance, go get it checked out. If not, a good rule of thumb is "If it hurts, Don't do it". No sense in re-injuring it slightly every day...

Geez, throw a little rain into the mix, and we all turn into doctors. I'm fishing this week- Rain be dammed! :reeling:

[Jimmyz123]

Well stated Steve, Whatever you do we all wish you well and a quick recovery.

[WahooUSMA]

Hobie


X-2

[fongman]

....Best thing you can do is let the body try to repair the damage on its own initially. For shoulders, this usually means to immobilize it, which is a pain in the butt, but effective. You can buy a shoulder sling at walgreens for pretty cheap. I'd get one that supports the shoulder, as well as straps it to the body. You use your arm so much in the day, it's too easy to cheat with the ones that don't have the body strap. Even sleep with it, I'm sure you've already woken yourself up with shooting pain from moving your arm around a night? I know I do when I re-injure mine. Strap your arm up with your hand elevated higher than your elbow. For the first week, do ice only for about 20 min, 5X a day.

After the week of rest, light movement is good. Your body will tell you what is appropriate. Like Andy said, you can switch between heat and ice now, and start looking at some PT....
Be careful if you decide to immobilize your shoulder. A few years back I had a skiing accident and had a slight tear of the labrum. I had previous experience with shoulder problems and PT, so I thought I would immobilize it and then do some of the exercises I used before. Unfortunately, it didn't take very long before I had a frozen shoulder.

I was covered by Sharp PPO and they were great. I got a referral to a Orthopedic surgeon, got an MRI, and was given a surgery date. I decided I didn't want to be cut, so they gave me a cortizone shot and I started PT therapy 3 times a week, plus at home while watching TV. It took 2 years to get full mobility back.

Brian, I know what you are going through with Kaiser. One of the guys I worked with was having shoulder problems at the same time as me, but he had Kaiser and the doctors wouldn't let him have an MRI until he had x number of cortizone shots. The treatment wasn't helping, but they still wouldn't do the MRI. Good luck with your injury......and with Kaiser!

[BT]

Well good news! I went to the docs yesterday expecting to get a referal, but Kaiser actually has specialists working with their doctor staff during the day. The doctor brought in a sports medicine specialist and he ran me through a rigor of tests (all movement, nothing fancy). He said since I didnt have any pain that he doesnt think there is any tears, just that I stretched out the superspanateous (sp?) and that it will just take a while to (6-8 weeks) to get back to normal. He didnt feel or see anything that would warrant an MRI at this point. As far as the weakness he is sending me off to a nueorlogist to see what is going on with the nerves. He said the superspanateous may have rolled out of place and is pinching a nerve causing me to loose grip strength.

He actually gave me an exercise called a beer can exercise. And yes its in the paperwork! WOOHOO! I told him I dont like canned beer and he said a bottle would be ok too. That and I should be getting massages! all in the paperwork! Had to show the wife. Told her I would start off with the 12 oz exerciese and work up to 16, then 22s.

[old_rookie]

Was there anything in there about sitting on the sofa on Sundays watching NFL? Or getting help loading/unloading the kayak?

[-scallywag-]

If you have dislocated you shoulder more than once in the past then you'll need surgery. If you're having dislocating problems I'd pay outta pocket for the MRI's. If they end up doing the surgeries then I'm sure they will eventually comp you for it, although every Ins. company I've had (anthem and Kaiser) have been complete scum and will do anything to get out of paying....really pretty sad. Just be diligent with the paperwork and jumping through their hoops, eventually they will have to pay or face a bad faith lawsuit.

Having had extensive shoulder surgeries in the past, and one recently I can safely say that the doc's don't know sh!t until they do the MRI...after a year or so of being past around my sports doctors telling me to "rest it" and getting shots I finally figured out that my PPO ins allowed me to get an MRI without a doctors request.

After bringing the MRI's to one of the better doc's, he said something about looking like Evel Knienevil's shoulder and I was under the knife with-in a month. My shoulder is much better than before....almost 100%.

FYI: the shoulder MRI cost to the Ins. company was under $600

[BT]

Was there anything in there about sitting on the sofa on Sundays watching NFL? Or getting help loading/unloading the kayak?

LOL...the first clause was written into my prenuptuals with my season tickets.

If you have dislocated you shoulder more than once in the past then you'll need surgery. If you're having dislocating problems I'd pay outta pocket for the MRI's. If they end up doing the surgeries then I'm sure they will eventually comp you for it, although every Ins. company I've had (anthem and Kaiser) have been complete scum and will do anything to get out of paying....really pretty sad. Just be diligent with the paperwork and jumping through their hoops, eventually they will have to pay or face a bad faith lawsuit.

Having had extensive shoulder surgeries in the past, and one recently I can safely say that the doc's don't know sh!t until they do the MRI...after a year or so of being past around my sports doctors telling me to "rest it" and getting shots I finally figured out that my PPO ins allowed me to get an MRI without a doctors request.

After bringing the MRI's to one of the better doc's, he said something about looking like Evel Knienevil's shoulder and I was under the knife with-in a month. My shoulder is much better than before....almost 100%.

FYI: the shoulder MRI cost to the Ins. company was under $600

He did mention the MRI, but wants to do an EMG (nerve study) before since it is all weakness now and not pain. I actually went out last night on a buddies boat and pulled some hoops and it felt fine. It seems to be the fine motor skills of my hand that are problematic. I could pull the nets, but when I have to cut the zip ties at the end of the night to get my bait cages out, I had to use both hands. But I feel good today. Gonna get on my yak next week...I think that will be the real test.

[-scallywag-]

.....HOBIE?......:D

[Jimmyz123]

LOL...the first clause was written into my prenuptuals with my season tickets.



He did mention the MRI, but wants to do an EMG (nerve study) before since it is all weakness now and not pain. I actually went out last night on a buddies boat and pulled some hoops and it felt fine. It seems to be the fine motor skills of my hand that are problematic. I could pull the nets, but when I have to cut the zip ties at the end of the night to get my bait cages out, I had to use both hands. But I feel good today. Gonna get on my yak next week...I think that will be the real test.

This is Kaisers Standard M.O. My wife was having issues also in her shoulder with similar to what you are talking about and they scheduled her the same way to rule out Nerves. However the process is not fun, you are going to get shocked my friend. They hit you in various parts of your arm, hand, and shoulder area to see what's going on.

[maui jim]

The Older I get, The Better I was........:D

[StinkyMatt]

Your doctor does not work for you!

Seriously, they work on behalf of the insurance company to minimize the company's financial outlay. If you believe otherwise you may be in for a lot of BS.

About 3 years ago I became a "pain in the ass" patient, I always:

Ask that everything my doctor writes down is printed (they hate this one)
What is the idea for doctors writing anyways?

Ask for a copy of your charts every time you go in.

Ask for a couple of alternative medication choices. (even if you do not plan on using them)

After every single thing that is explained to you ask why ?

Insist on services, call (yes this takes lots of time) I pretty much spent 2-3 weeks getting approval from my HMO for an MRI.

Like a previous post says" Thay don't know squat before an MRI" they just have a good guess/ opinion.

Get you moneys worth!


Get well soon or learn to reel with your other hand.:D:D:D

[BT]

This is Kaisers Standard M.O. My wife was having issues also in her shoulder with similar to what you are talking about and they scheduled her the same way to rule out Nerves. However the process is not fun, you are going to get shocked my friend. They hit you in various parts of your arm, hand, and shoulder area to see what's going on.

I have had an EMG before. I had carpal tunnel in both of my wrists and thats how they determine the extent of the nerve damage. It doesnt hurt really, its like getting electric stimulation after a physical therapy session. It warms up the area and causes your muscles to twitch. It is really nothing, but I also have a pretty decent pain tolerance level.

Your doctor does not work for you!

Seriously, they work on behalf of the insurance company to minimize the company's financial outlay. If you believe otherwise you may be in for a lot of BS.

About 3 years ago I became a "pain in the ass" patient, I always:

Ask that everything my doctor writes down is printed (they hate this one)
What is the idea for doctors writing anyways?

Ask for a copy of your charts every time you go in.

Ask for a couple of alternative medication choices. (even if you do not plan on using them)

After every single thing that is explained to you ask why ?

Insist on services, call (yes this takes lots of time) I pretty much spent 2-3 weeks getting approval from my HMO for an MRI.

Like a previous post says" Thay don't know squat before an MRI" they just have a good guess/ opinion.

Get you moneys worth!


Get well soon or learn to reel with your other hand.:D:D:D

Kaiser does print out everything which is nice. And I know where you are coming from about insisting on services. The only reason I didnt push the MRI issue, is because the last time I had weakness in my hands it was the carpal tunnel and I had no pain. So I see where they are going, but if this shows nothing I am going to push the MRI.

[cowboybill]

Sorry to hear about your injury.

I had an old Dirt bike injury that I never got checked out, I just lived with it. Slowly, and because I am stubborn, I worked through it, although every now and the then I would get "the twinge"...

Then I got a Kayak, and started paddling...lots! Usually trying to keep up with Kevin aka "the kid" to try and get a bit of wisdom, or maybe even a left over fish or two!!

There have been days I have paddled for 12 hours, and could hardly move in the morning, but I can say my shoulder is back to 100%!!! In fact, although I can see huge advantages to the hobie peddle system, I love paddling for my shoulders!!

I hope for you your shoulder injury works out as well as mine did...

:cheers1:cowboybill