10/7 LJ AM - Kayak Fishing Adventures on Big Water’s Edge

madscientist · 10-07-2005, 09:47 AM

Beautiful starry morning when I got to the shores to find Andy heading out. I joined him up north looking for bait. Took a little effort but they were around. Caught what look like large sardines minus the spots and with a different fin structure. Loaded with roe. Are female sardines different than male? Trolled out towards the kelp. Saw one good spot of fish but they were out of range and diappeared as quickly as they showed. That was it. Epic conditions but the swell was picking up at the launch when I landed. May be rough this weekend.

twinfin · 10-07-2005, 10:23 AM

Ditto for me. Had two snickers sized spanish in the water at grey light--out and back for nada. Epic beauty of a morning, just no fish.

aguachico · 10-07-2005, 12:10 PM

jumbo deens without the spots are Jack Smelt, or so I've been told.

Neil · 10-07-2005, 02:25 PM

Shhhhhh

Iceman · 10-07-2005, 05:31 PM

Brad I saw one of your mystery baits on the beach. Definately not a jack smelt. This is a jack smelt.

Brad's baits had a very bright blue stripe and the mouth and head looked just like a sardine. The scales were more pronounced than a smelt. No pix Brad? I am looking. Nate commented that it looked like a flying fish minus the winged pectoral fins.

Spinal Tap · 10-07-2005, 05:58 PM

What's even more queer about that fish is even the seagulls didn't want them.

Could it be a small version of whatever was in the waves?

Zed · 10-07-2005, 06:43 PM

I love interweb-guessing fish identities with no pix.
I'm guessing topsmelt.

scwafish · 10-08-2005, 05:57 AM

The shot Iceman has is definitely a jacksmelt. I don'y know about pelagics, but FYI halibut love those things. Just put a trap hook in the peduncle or they will usually spit it before getting to the nose hook.

madscientist · 10-09-2005, 07:28 AM

OK, here's the picks. From the description I thought it might be a jack smelt, but it in no way looked smelty. Looked just like a sardine, except for being a little chunkier and the coloring.

Top is mystery, bottom sardine.

Order inverted

Also, you can't see it in the pic, but the anal fins were much more widely spaced on the mystery fish. I had two of them and the one I dissected was full of roe. My off the cuff guess is some variation or related sardine species, but there was enough difference in the overall anatomy that I'd believe it if it was a diferrent species altogether.

kurt · 10-09-2005, 08:00 AM

It's obviously a baby yellowtail. Hope you got a weight and tape shot. :P

madscientist · 10-09-2005, 08:45 AM

That was the first thing Andy said on the water when I asked him. You guys are funny :lol: . But I'll take a point for it :? .

Iceman · 10-09-2005, 04:33 PM

Did a sardine image search and found these.

Similar, but not the same fish.

DOGHOUSE26 · 10-09-2005, 09:40 PM

Is it a large Saury, I've seen them outside but not tight to the beach unless the water is REAL clean blue.

Zed · 10-10-2005, 06:38 AM

Pacific Herring? Cousin to the sardine?

Iceman · 10-10-2005, 06:39 AM

The sauries that I have seen offshore are long and slender like this one.

madscientist · 10-10-2005, 06:40 AM

I tried to find a pic of a saury with no luck, but the descriptions sound close. Seems they glide out of the water when chased similar to flying fish. There seems to be some arguement as to precisely which branch of the fish tree they are on, but they seem close to flying fish and needle fish.

Quote:

Phylogeny and Jaw Ontogeny of Beloniform Fishes1
Issn: 1540-7063 Journal: Integrative and Comparative Biology Volume: 44 Issue: 5 Pages: 366-377
Authors: Lovejoy, Nathan R., Iranpour, Mahmood, Collette, Bruce B.
DOI: 10.1043/1540-7063(2004)044<0366:PAJOOB>2.0.CO;2

ABSTRACT

To investigate jaw evolution in beloniform fishes, we reconstructed the phylogeny of 54 species using fragments of two nuclear (RAG2 and Tmo-4C4) and two mitochondrial (cytochrome b and 16S rRNA) genes. Our total molecular evidence topology refutes the monophyly of needlefishes (Belonidae) and halfbeaks (Hemiramphidae), but supports the monophyly of flyingfishes (Exocoetidae) and sauries (Scomberesocidae). Flyingfishes are nested within halfbeaks, and sauries are nested within needlefishes. Optimization of jaw characters on the tree reveals a diverse array of evolutionary changes in ontogeny.

Apparently, they are delicious. At least in the hands of an Iron Chef.

http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/show..._20490,00.html

Pretty interesting.

DOGHOUSE26 · 10-10-2005, 11:10 PM

thanks iceman!

madscientist · 10-11-2005, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed

Pacific Herring? Cousin to the sardine?

Sounds reasonable. What ya think Andy, herring?

Spinal Tap · 10-11-2005, 07:57 AM

I've used herring as bait for sturgeon in the SF bay and they don't look like that fish.

10-07-2005, 09:47 AM	#1
madscientist Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,906	10/7 LJ AM Beautiful starry morning when I got to the shores to find Andy heading out. I joined him up north looking for bait. Took a little effort but they were around. Caught what look like large sardines minus the spots and with a different fin structure. Loaded with roe. Are female sardines different than male? Trolled out towards the kelp. Saw one good spot of fish but they were out of range and diappeared as quickly as they showed. That was it. Epic conditions but the swell was picking up at the launch when I landed. May be rough this weekend.

10-07-2005, 05:31 PM	#5
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,943	Brad I saw one of your mystery baits on the beach. Definately not a jack smelt. This is a jack smelt. Brad's baits had a very bright blue stripe and the mouth and head looked just like a sardine. The scales were more pronounced than a smelt. No pix Brad? I am looking. Nate commented that it looked like a flying fish minus the winged pectoral fins. __________________

10-09-2005, 04:33 PM	#12
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,943	Did a sardine image search and found these. Similar, but not the same fish. __________________

10-10-2005, 06:39 AM	#15
Iceman Administrator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: 1-2 miles off the point Posts: 6,943	The sauries that I have seen offshore are long and slender like this one. __________________

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10-07-2005, 10:23 AM	#2
twinfin Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 121	Ditto for me. Had two snickers sized spanish in the water at grey light--out and back for nada. Epic beauty of a morning, just no fish.

10-07-2005, 12:10 PM	#3
aguachico Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 719	jumbo deens without the spots are Jack Smelt, or so I've been told.

10-07-2005, 02:25 PM	#4
Neil Junior Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: San Diego Posts: 2	Shhhhhh

10-07-2005, 05:58 PM	#6
Spinal Tap Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 132	What's even more queer about that fish is even the seagulls didn't want them. Could it be a small version of whatever was in the waves?

10-07-2005, 06:43 PM	#7
Zed BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: W of 5 Posts: 1,265	I love interweb-guessing fish identities with no pix. I'm guessing topsmelt.

10-08-2005, 05:57 AM	#8
scwafish Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Ukiah Posts: 86	The shot Iceman has is definitely a jacksmelt. I don'y know about pelagics, but FYI halibut love those things. Just put a trap hook in the peduncle or they will usually spit it before getting to the nose hook.

10-09-2005, 07:28 AM	#9
madscientist Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,906	OK, here's the picks. From the description I thought it might be a jack smelt, but it in no way looked smelty. Looked just like a sardine, except for being a little chunkier and the coloring. Top is mystery, bottom sardine. Order inverted Also, you can't see it in the pic, but the anal fins were much more widely spaced on the mystery fish. I had two of them and the one I dissected was full of roe. My off the cuff guess is some variation or related sardine species, but there was enough difference in the overall anatomy that I'd believe it if it was a diferrent species altogether.

10-09-2005, 08:00 AM	#10
kurt Senior Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: 2 inches above sea level Posts: 502	It's obviously a baby yellowtail. Hope you got a weight and tape shot. :P

10-09-2005, 08:45 AM	#11
madscientist Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 1,906	That was the first thing Andy said on the water when I asked him. You guys are funny :lol: . But I'll take a point for it :? .

10-09-2005, 09:40 PM	#13
DOGHOUSE26 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Escondido Posts: 36	Is it a large Saury, I've seen them outside but not tight to the beach unless the water is REAL clean blue.

10-10-2005, 06:38 AM	#14
Zed BANNED Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: W of 5 Posts: 1,265	Pacific Herring? Cousin to the sardine?

10-10-2005, 11:10 PM	#17
DOGHOUSE26 Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Escondido Posts: 36	thanks iceman!

10-11-2005, 07:57 AM	#19
Spinal Tap Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 132	I've used herring as bait for sturgeon in the SF bay and they don't look like that fish.