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Old 08-17-2017, 08:17 PM   #21
tim506
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loved this thread,thank you all for the lesson
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Old 08-18-2017, 07:28 AM   #22
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I'm just giving my experience, I have seen fish that wouldn't bite 25-30lb line but if you went down to 15-20lb you would get bite after bite. Fish have great eye seight. Also, feeling your bait get excited is not going to change the outcome. Either you get bit or you dont how is that going to help you get hooked up? lol The only one advantage you have is with the kelp and that's it.
You're a few steps behind and just don't realize it. No more free help from me.

You want to bring 15 lb for all those days when you've seen LJ yellows afraid bite 25 lb? Be my guest.

You haven't learned why it's important to have a good feel for your bait when flylining? Spend some time on the water and figure it out. Or just throw it in the rod holder and take a nap. Whatever works for you, buddy.
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Old 08-18-2017, 03:25 PM   #23
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You're a few steps behind and just don't realize it. No more free help from me.

You want to bring 15 lb for all those days when you've seen LJ yellows afraid bite 25 lb? Be my guest.

You haven't learned why it's important to have a good feel for your bait when flylining? Spend some time on the water and figure it out. Or just throw it in the rod holder and take a nap. Whatever works for you, buddy.
Give me an example how knowing that your bait is getting excited is going to help you get hooked up? Either they fish grabs it or doesn't right? It could be getting excited by seeing a sea dog, other mackeral, any number of things. I don't see how that is going to effect the outcome but whatever works for you bud. 😉
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Old 08-18-2017, 06:16 PM   #24
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Give me an example how knowing that your bait is getting excited is going to help you get hooked up? Either they fish grabs it or doesn't right? It could be getting excited by seeing a sea dog, other mackeral, any number of things. I don't see how that is going to effect the outcome but whatever works for you bud. 😉
Wrong! Like I said, no more free help.
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:55 PM   #25
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Wrong! Like I said, no more free help.
Thanks I need the help 😂😂😂
My 10 year old son catches more fish than you
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Old 08-19-2017, 06:57 PM   #26
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Old 08-21-2017, 02:37 AM   #27
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Some Fluoro and Spectra info - to The Pelican, keep advising

To the Pelican - Don't stop giving advice just because one person has an attitude. Others who keep quiet are listening, hopefully including the original poster on this thread. Just don't be quite so sarcastic to those who can't handle constructive advice and just ignore them. Not worth typing the extra characters.

As for Ultimatejay - "Thanks I need the help 😂😂😂
My 10 year old son catches more fish than you."

Real Mature - it's like listening to a hipster Bernie supporter talk to reactionary Trump fan - or vice-versa. No one wants to give you help since evidently your anecdotal evidence is all you need. His response was for the original poster so he could offer a different perspective than you did (a more accurate one at that).

I don't post or read the forums much anymore because frankly I don't like to fish in the zoos or elsewhere when a bite is announced, preferring to go to Baja and I no longer want to share too much about those spots. I've been kayak fishing for over 20 years and mostly was in LJ - was in the sport fishing business for 10 years prior to even getting into the Yak. There were so few of us then kayak fishing LJ that I would get lit up by Coast Guard and Police Helos to check on my safety when fishing WSB at night. They scattered the bait and blew the bite when they would turn the spot on me. For my 'bonafides' - I was the rep who brought fluoro (Seguar) and Spectra (Power Pro) aggressively into the kayak market - sponsored Spike among others. I have posted similar explanations before in the distant past, but I guess it's time again. And I am no longer associated with any product in the fishing business - so I have no invested interest in my comments, just hoping to educate others.

The Pelican is right and you are scientifically wrong about mono vs. spectra w/fluoro top shot, specifically regarding visibility. Fluoro gets bit over mono for a simple reason, it doesn't reflect and refract light like mono - some mono almost looks like an LED in certain light/water conditions. If you are using poorer quality or fluoro blended lines, that may not be as true. Spectra is opaque, not allowing any light to travel down and is usually less visible than the best mono looking from below. This is the main reason fluoro was invented - as a high density, ultra-clear, non-reflective coating for certain aircraft equipment that needed to be distortion free. They then discovered its application as a fishing line. Fluoro should also be much closer to the density of water and spectras are so much thinner than mono that the bait also acts more naturally since there is less drag. An as eluded to, the lack of stretch in Spectra does provide better sensitivity.

However, there can exist water conditions where the mono is nearly as invisible as fluoro and it's larger diameter and stretchiness might just sync up to provide a better overall presentation on a specific day. That could have been the case on the day you cited. I often like how a 6X JR sinks slower in lighter currents with the extra drag from mono, vs the faster sink rate w/Spectra. Mono is also easier to cast for some - specially w/older gear. The reason the Tranx was created was for Shimano to make it easier to cast a Surface Iron using Power Pro once they bought the company. The biggest reasons for the original resistance to Spectra w/short fluoro was the tendency for Spectra to cut off others on sport boats and fish to come unbuttoned or break off the leader when they were at shallow color. The later caused fishing equipment and techniques that didn't match - stronger drags on high speed reels, ex-fast graphite rods, and no stretch Spectra combined to eliminate any forgiveness. If a fish took a run as a swell lifted a boat - plus the anglers adrenaline kicks in at the end of the fight - 10 ft. of line would get pulled to 20 ft, and 20lbs of tension turned to 40lbs. in a few seconds - and something would have to give - usually one of the knots. But those issue don't exist on the kayak. You almost never here a talented/experienced skipper or crew claim that mono is as good or better than fluoro for visibility - but exactly the opposite.

My biggest issue w/Spectra on the yak is when using heavy Spectra and Fluoro and fishing bottom structure, if you get stuck deep, the yak just doesn't provide enough leverage to pop it free - and 100+ feet of Spectra is not something you want to leave in the ocean.

Last edited by greenscales; 08-21-2017 at 10:35 AM. Reason: cleaning up the formatting
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:21 AM   #28
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As a norcal lurker who's only experience catching YT was a one-time guided outing in 2011, and looking to head south again, your post had a lot of good tips. Thanks! As for hooks, any particular brand you recommend? Also, I see other posts using J hooks, circle hooks, etc. I guess it's preference, but was curious why others use certain hook, and why they think it's "better" for hooking the YT. thx again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The pelican View Post
In the summertime, it's not that complicated. Hard to say what you need to change with such limited info but here are some ideas:

1. Ditch the weight. Flyline means line and a hook with a bait at the end. No weights.

2. Catch plenty of greenbacks (25 of them is a good number for a day in La Jolla) and keep them happy/healthy. Don't throw them in a home depot bucket full of water, don't squeeze the shit out of them, and don't drag around the same half dead mac for hours. Drop directly from the sabiki into the bait tank. Throw back the bleeders. Lively greenbacks are key.

3. Drop to 30 lb flouro.

4. #4 hook is small. Try a ringed 1/0 hook.

5. Fish the right areas. If you aren't keyed in, then cover ground. If you're sitting at the edge of the MPA in one spot all day or in the same spot in the middle of the canyon all day, you're not giving yourself a good shot. Try trolling that greenback about 100 feet behind you from the front of La Valencia around south to marine street, for example, in 60 feet of water. When you reach the end of the road, turn around and troll back to La Valencia in 70 feet of water. Then back to marine in 80, and so on until you're fishing in 120 or deeper. Do that for 8-10 hours a few weekends in a row and see if you don't get bit.
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Old 08-21-2017, 09:23 AM   #29
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thanks for the tip. What hook recommendation do you have for this newbie? Thx again.
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Old 08-21-2017, 10:29 AM   #30
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I agree with greenscales... Thank you for the help Pelican. I'm not on here to talk crap on anyone's ideas, I appreciate your honest advise. Most people do not share their tricks so I appreciate that.

Mike
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Old 08-21-2017, 12:09 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by greenscales View Post
To the Pelican - Don't stop giving advice just because one person has an attitude. Others who keep quiet are listening, hopefully including the original poster on this thread. Just don't be quite so sarcastic to those who can't handle constructive advice and just ignore them. Not worth typing the extra characters.

As for Ultimatejay - "Thanks I need the help 😂😂😂
My 10 year old son catches more fish than you."

Real Mature - it's like listening to a hipster Bernie supporter talk to reactionary Trump fan - or vice-versa. No one wants to give you help since evidently your anecdotal evidence is all you need. His response was for the original poster so he could offer a different perspective than you did (a more accurate one at that).

I don't post or read the forums much anymore because frankly I don't like to fish in the zoos or elsewhere when a bite is announced, preferring to go to Baja and I no longer want to share too much about those spots. I've been kayak fishing for over 20 years and mostly was in LJ - was in the sport fishing business for 10 years prior to even getting into the Yak. There were so few of us then kayak fishing LJ that I would get lit up by Coast Guard and Police Helos to check on my safety when fishing WSB at night. They scattered the bait and blew the bite when they would turn the spot on me. For my 'bonafides' - I was the rep who brought fluoro (Seguar) and Spectra (Power Pro) aggressively into the kayak market - sponsored Spike among others. I have posted similar explanations before in the distant past, but I guess it's time again. And I am no longer associated with any product in the fishing business - so I have no invested interest in my comments, just hoping to educate others.

The Pelican is right and you are scientifically wrong about mono vs. spectra w/fluoro top shot, specifically regarding visibility. Fluoro gets bit over mono for a simple reason, it doesn't reflect and refract light like mono - some mono almost looks like an LED in certain light/water conditions. If you are using poorer quality or fluoro blended lines, that may not be as true. Spectra is opaque, not allowing any light to travel down and is usually less visible than the best mono looking from below. This is the main reason fluoro was invented - as a high density, ultra-clear, non-reflective coating for certain aircraft equipment that needed to be distortion free. They then discovered its application as a fishing line. Fluoro should also be much closer to the density of water and spectras are so much thinner than mono that the bait also acts more naturally since there is less drag. An as eluded to, the lack of stretch in Spectra does provide better sensitivity.

However, there can exist water conditions where the mono is nearly as invisible as fluoro and it's larger diameter and stretchiness might just sync up to provide a better overall presentation on a specific day. That could have been the case on the day you cited. I often like how a 6X JR sinks slower in lighter currents with the extra drag from mono, vs the faster sink rate w/Spectra. Mono is also easier to cast for some - specially w/older gear. The reason the Tranx was created was for Shimano to make it easier to cast a Surface Iron using Power Pro once they bought the company. The biggest reasons for the original resistance to Spectra w/short fluoro was the tendency for Spectra to cut off others on sport boats and fish to come unbuttoned or break off the leader when they were at shallow color. The later caused fishing equipment and techniques that didn't match - stronger drags on high speed reels, ex-fast graphite rods, and no stretch Spectra combined to eliminate any forgiveness. If a fish took a run as a swell lifted a boat - plus the anglers adrenaline kicks in at the end of the fight - 10 ft. of line would get pulled to 20 ft, and 20lbs of tension turned to 40lbs. in a few seconds - and something would have to give - usually one of the knots. But those issue don't exist on the kayak. You almost never here a talented/experienced skipper or crew claim that mono is as good or better than fluoro for visibility - but exactly the opposite.

My biggest issue w/Spectra on the yak is when using heavy Spectra and Fluoro and fishing bottom structure, if you get stuck deep, the yak just doesn't provide enough leverage to pop it free - and 100+ feet of Spectra is not something you want to leave in the ocean.
First off, you must have not read any of my posts. I never asked for any help from this Pelican guy. Secondly I never was comparing mono to flouro- I said in my experiencecan get line shy with braid and I get more bites using mono backing with flouro leader vs braid backing and flouro leader.
Thirdly, no way your getting 25 mackerel in a kayak bait tank and have them live for very long unless they are 2"- Pelican is full of shit!
Fourthly, I was just giving my personal experience- didn't say it was better or worse just stating an observation in my experience. Then this Pelican prick comes along and thinks he's gods gift to fishing telling me " No more free help".
I never asked for help and I guarantee I have caught more fish then he will ever dream of. He didn't have to say that, all he had to say is that he hasn't had issues with bites using braid in his experience and then the people reading this thread can decifer what they want to use. If you're going to be an A-hole to me, I'm going to give it back.
There's no doubt in my mind and personal experience that sometimes fish can become very picky and line shy, especially LJ with all the fishing pressure there.
There's pro and cons to both set ups. Use what you have confidence in and works for you, but don't be single minded.
Peace out.
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Old 08-21-2017, 01:20 PM   #32
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UltimateJay - sorry, but you started off the negativity: The Pelican was responding to Crashcrows request with very solid and detailed information w/o mentioning you at all, obviously putting some time and thought into it. You then questioned his authenticity by stating "25 green backs in a kayak bait tank?" He then explained handling the bait correctly made a huge difference to there health, w/a little snarky retort to you - and then it was on. In fact Saturday I had a mix of candy greenbacks (under 6") and jumbo sardines from Mission Bay- which are more fragile - started w/30 ended w/15 still healthy 8 hours later. And my tank pump was faltering at first. And I have done more bait for longer periods as well. So don't question others if you do not want them to question you. Now you are calling him "a prick" and he "is full of shit." Am I a liar as well because I am agreeing that you can keep 25 pieces of bait alive for a day when properly handled and in the right tank? My original title was going to be "Chill out you two." So his comments about no more education is understood since - I presume like me - he doesn't want to be given a bunch of negativity for providing information. And I presume you do not either.

Afterwards the conversation erupted, with personal quips on both sides, surrounding the Spectra and Fluoro. I am just putting my 2 cents in education on the materials because you stated the Yellowtail were onto braid and I have industry based knowledge - I also was a manufacture rep for co-polymers as well. I am no longer as knowledgeable on LJ as before since I do not spend as much time on the water others do. However I will not trash another persons legitimacy as a fisherman, which you continue to about you and your kid catching more fish than Pelican. Maybe its true, but do you have evidence, and even if not, please keep it civil. Just like I suggested to Pelican not to be so sarcastic. Again - like watching politics: some 20 year old Emo claims the sky is falling and companies must be shuttered and we must all wear clothing made of hemp because it hit 100 in LA and it never had in his long life and then some 90 year old curmudgeon replies that it hit 120 when he was a kid and he is going to continue to burn his trash in his backyard and dump his bilge in the bay because its his right and he has seen no affect. The same reason I avoid FB, Twitter, Instagram, Tinder, or whatever way people who feel disaffected want to promote themselves.

Just like Pelican started out, my goal is to pass on information. My point of Flouro to Mono was visibility as a bridge to understand correlative properties of Spectra - which in fact has as many attributes of - correcting my wording - stealthiness (instead of invisibility) because of its thinness and doesn't transmit light like mono (or most co-polymers - which has primarily replaced monofilament). 50lb Power Pro w/30lb Seaguar Blue or Premier - rigged correctly - will fish bait more naturally than the always thicker and usually stiffer 40lb co-polymer and Fluoro in most current conditions and through kelp because the Spectra is thinner and less stiff.

I agree essentially with what both of you indicated - you will fish better with something you feel more confidence in. For instance - dropper loop fishing is way easier and less expensive with large mono top shot over just a short fluoro. And I am glad you are teaching your kid how to fish. Way better than all of my friends whose kids know nothing but trashing each other and being experts online about everything with no real experience about anything - such as environmentalists who have never been on the water but eat Sushi w/o a clue as to where it came from other than a branding of "dolphin free" (45% of seafood is mislabeled in restaurants). Then promote MLPAs in some of the most sustainable fisheries. Oops - time for me to shut up and to hit the water I think.

N.B. - I hope to see both of you next Saturday at the CCA craft beer and food festival at Portuguese Hall to support keeping them from trying again to close all of LaJolal to fisherman. We can toast to catching yellowtail verses just fishing for them or talking about it online. http://www.ccacalifornia.org/cca-cal...ent-save-date/
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:12 PM   #33
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UltimateJay - sorry, but you started off the negativity: The Pelican was responding to Crashcrows request with very solid and detailed information w/o mentioning you at all, obviously putting some time and thought into it. You then questioned his authenticity by stating "25 green backs in a kayak bait tank?" He then explained handling the bait correctly made a huge difference to there health, w/a little snarky retort to you - and then it was on. In fact Saturday I had a mix of candy greenbacks (under 6") and jumbo sardines from Mission Bay- which are more fragile - started w/30 ended w/15 still healthy 8 hours later. And my tank pump was faltering at first. And I have done more bait for longer periods as well. So don't question others if you do not want them to question you. Now you are calling him "a prick" and he "is full of shit." Am I a liar as well because I am agreeing that you can keep 25 pieces of bait alive for a day when properly handled and in the right tank? My original title was going to be "Chill out you two." So his comments about no more education is understood since - I presume like me - he doesn't want to be given a bunch of negativity for providing information. And I presume you do not either.

Afterwards the conversation erupted, with personal quips on both sides, surrounding the Spectra and Fluoro. I am just putting my 2 cents in education on the materials because you stated the Yellowtail were onto braid and I have industry based knowledge - I also was a manufacture rep for co-polymers as well. I am no longer as knowledgeable on LJ as before since I do not spend as much time on the water others do. However I will not trash another persons legitimacy as a fisherman, which you continue to about you and your kid catching more fish than Pelican. Maybe its true, but do you have evidence, and even if not, please keep it civil. Just like I suggested to Pelican not to be so sarcastic. Again - like watching politics: some 20 year old Emo claims the sky is falling and companies must be shuttered and we must all wear clothing made of hemp because it hit 100 in LA and it never had in his long life and then some 90 year old curmudgeon replies that it hit 120 when he was a kid and he is going to continue to burn his trash in his backyard and dump his bilge in the bay because its his right and he has seen no affect. The same reason I avoid FB, Twitter, Instagram, Tinder, or whatever way people who feel disaffected want to promote themselves.

Just like Pelican started out, my goal is to pass on information. My point of Flouro to Mono was visibility as a bridge to understand correlative properties of Spectra - which in fact has as many attributes of - correcting my wording - stealthiness (instead of invisibility) because of its thinness and doesn't transmit light like mono (or most co-polymers - which has primarily replaced monofilament). 50lb Power Pro w/30lb Seaguar Blue or Premier - rigged correctly - will fish bait more naturally than the always thicker and usually stiffer 40lb co-polymer and Fluoro in most current conditions and through kelp because the Spectra is thinner and less stiff.

I agree essentially with what both of you indicated - you will fish better with something you feel more confidence in. For instance - dropper loop fishing is way easier and less expensive with large mono top shot over just a short fluoro. And I am glad you are teaching your kid how to fish. Way better than all of my friends whose kids know nothing but trashing each other and being experts online about everything with no real experience about anything - such as environmentalists who have never been on the water but eat Sushi w/o a clue as to where it came from other than a branding of "dolphin free" (45% of seafood is mislabeled in restaurants). Then promote MLPAs in some of the most sustainable fisheries. Oops - time for me to shut up and to hit the water I think.

N.B. - I hope to see both of you next Saturday at the CCA craft beer and food festival at Portuguese Hall to support keeping them from trying again to close all of LaJolal to fisherman. We can toast to catching yellowtail verses just fishing for them or talking about it online. http://www.ccacalifornia.org/cca-cal...ent-save-date/
I never once said Pelicans advise was bad other than putting 25 mackerel in a bait tank. That will not work 100% positive. I have been collecting rare exotic fish in the Aquaria for over 36 years and you can't have that many large fish in a small tank and have them survive for any amount of time. The fish give off too much pollutants that tbe water turn over rate could never keep up with, not including the fish hitting each over. Pelican did give good detailed info- pretty much what I said before his post but let's quit the BS- there's no way your going to get 25 normal size mackerel in a bait tank and make them last all day or even 30 min. If you call that negativity then I guess you must be a liberal. lol
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Old 08-21-2017, 04:29 PM   #34
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Then I guess I am liar as well since I have started with that many small macks in my Hobie tank numerous times and ended up with some left alive at the end. Mind you I am not keeping 25 all day, and they aren't stocked trout size, if that's what you mean my "normal size" talking under 6" when I have that many. If you see one start to falter, you toss it out, if not, then more will roll on you. The key is you have constant flow of water in and out, not O2 percolating in a closed environment - if that were my system, they would definitely roll. If the macks are big, then I keep a few a move on to look for smaller ones and will the large ones out. Bigger bait does not necessarily mean bigger fish, it just means your missing more bites, and you won't be wasting as much time with the smaller game fish. And chunking is always an option as well.
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